The Team That Feaster Built

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Hiring Hartley for the team that we had at the time of hiring Hartley was, arguably, wrong at that time. Hartley was not able to do anything with that team, just like Brent Sutter couldn't do anything with that team. Both Hartley and B. Sutter do better with younger teams. It's easy to tell now that Hartley was a great choice but at that time it was a coin toss and Feaster did it based on a personal friendship/connection he had with Hartley. I mean, just like any other die-hard Flames fan I am happy to see how the new Flames are responding to Hartley's coaching; that's excellent; I just don't know if they wouldn't have responded to Brent the same way (and there's no way to check that, of course).

There's actually no evidence Brent is good with a young NHL team. The Devils teams he coached certainly weren't.

The bottom line is that Hartley has a better resume. He's a better option than Brent regardless of who's on the roster.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

There's actually no evidence Brent is good with a young NHL team. The Devils teams he coached certainly weren't.

The bottom line is that Hartley has a better resume. He's a better option than Brent regardless of who's on the roster.

LOL some of the stuff that gets thrown agains the walls here is laughable. The guy has a Memorial cup and two WJ Gold medals on his resume. I would say absolutely he's a good coach for a young team. It appears maybe not such a good coach for a veteran team that is set in their ways like the Flames were but let's not discount that he got that team over 90's points in every season as head coach so while they didn't make the playoffs they weren't a bad team either and a 215 - 146 - 49 record as NHL head coach isn't bad by any means. IMO Sutter was the scapegoat for a old core of players that wasn't willing to adapt. Just ask Hartley as his only season with that core was miserable.

[MrMastodonFarm]

The NHL and junior are different leagues and are coached different, just ask former baby Flames and now former WHL coach Ward.

Brent Sutter is a fabulous WHL, proved he wasn't a good NHL coach, and there is zero evidence to suggest he'd be good for young players in the NHL (or bad).

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

LOL some of the stuff that gets thrown agains the walls here is laughable. The guy has a Memorial cup and two WJ Gold medals on his resume.

Oh please. He was without question the worst coach in the world juniors last year.

After 1996 (when they started doing playoffs) Canada has been out of the final game only five times, and without a medal three times. Brent Sutter is one of the guys who managed to do it, and looking at the players each side had, it's clear he got badly outcoached.

Nobody outside of Canada considers it a big achievement to coach Canada into World Junior gold. They're always the favourite to win.

As for the memorial cup, big whoop, that was a decade ago. In his last four years coaching the Red Deer Rebels that team has been out of the playoffs twice and the other two times lost in conference quarter-finals. Hardly impressive.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The NHL and junior are different leagues and are coached different, just ask former baby Flames and now former WHL coach Ward.

Brent Sutter is a fabulous WHL, proved he wasn't a good NHL coach, and there is zero evidence to suggest he'd be good for young players in the NHL (or bad).

When given the same roster essentially as Brent, Hartley's team finished 24th overall in the league.

Some probably forget it due to his recent success but until the team turned it around following the departure of Iginla, Hartley was on the hot-seat as well because that first season of his, the Flames SUCKED.

If we're holding them to the same standard here, Brent Sutter got more out of his veteran lineup than Hartley got out of his.

That's not a sleight to Hartley, it's a defense of the malarky that Brent wasn't a good coach of an NHL roster. He got more out of them than maybe any coach in the league would have, and the evidence is comparing his team to Hartley and Playfair's opportunities with similar rosters.

Edit: Further to that, the reason Hartley came in in the first place was it was clear Brent wasn't coming back. He was either fired or didn't want to come back, by the sounds of it, him and Lowry were quite happy to move on knowing the flames were going to continue on the same tired direction.

That's when Hartley enters the picture as a guy who was supposed to whip the roster into shape. Team sucked, Feaster was trying to re-sign Iginla, Iginla refused forcing Feaster's hand and the rest is pretty much history.

Given the turmoil behind the scenes with this franchise while Brent was coach, his relative success with the team is pretty impressive in my opinion.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Itse

Oh please. He was without question the worst coach in the world juniors last year.

After 1996 (when they started doing playoffs) Canada has been out of the final game only five times, and without a medal three times. Brent Sutter is one of the guys who managed to do it, and looking at the players each side had, it's clear he got badly outcoached.

Nobody outside of Canada considers it a big achievement to coach Canada into World Junior gold. They're always the favourite to win.

As for the memorial cup, big whoop, that was a decade ago. In his last four years coaching the Red Deer Rebels that team has been out of the playoffs twice and the other two times lost in conference quarter-finals. Hardly impressive.

So no credit when they win but ultra-derision when they lose?

If his accomplishments are so run of the mill, why is he the only coach to ever coach Canada to consecutive Gold Medals, with an unbeaten roster along the way?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When given the same roster essentially as Brent, Hartley's team finished 24th overall in the league.

Some probably forget it due to his recent success but until the team turned it around following the departure of Iginla, Hartley was on the hot-seat as well because that first season of his, the Flames SUCKED.

If we're holding them to the same standard here, Brent Sutter got more out of his veteran lineup than Hartley got out of his.

That's not a sleight to Hartley, it's a defense of the malarky that Brent wasn't a good coach of an NHL roster. He got more out of them than maybe any coach in the league would have, and the evidence is comparing his team to Hartley and Playfair's opportunities with similar rosters.

Edit: Further to that, the reason Hartley came in in the first place was it was clear Brent wasn't coming back. He was either fired or didn't want to come back, by the sounds of it, him and Lowry were quite happy to move on knowing the flames were going to continue on the same tired direction.

That's when Hartley enters the picture as a guy who was supposed to whip the roster into shape. Team sucked, Feaster was trying to re-sign Iginla, Iginla refused forcing Feaster's hand and the rest is pretty much history.

Given the turmoil behind the scenes with this franchise while Brent was coach, his relative success with the team is pretty impressive in my opinion.

Hartley didn't do as well as Brent but than Brent didn't to as well as Keenan either and I think Brent had as good a team. One of the troubles I had with Brent is that he had one way to play the game no matter the personal given to him. I'm glad he's gone the only thing different I hoped was done at the time, was that Daryl was able to fire Brent and take over the coaching job and that Feaster never happened.

[Aarongavey]

Not sure how we got on to Brent, but the problem on his teams was leadership. You have a terrible captain on your team who refuses to buy into the concept of team it is tough to win. The Avalanche say hi this year, or maybe Roy does not know about winning either. This crap about a guy whose teams averaged 96 points a season in the NHL as an awful coach is laughable. I imagine Brent is back in Red Deer polishing the Stanley Cup rings wondering what the problem was on his teams.

If Brent was an awful NHL coach, so was Playfair, Keenan, and Hartley with that putrid group of players. We saw what Darryl could do with that group in Game 7 against the Ducks at home years earlier. The best part about that group was the yearly garbage bag day fights between Regehr and Iggy about whether the team should play a better defensive brand of hockey. Regehr has a Cup now though, he is a winner. And he won it with that solid defensive brand of hockey, the wingers on his team even backcheck.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So no credit when they win but ultra-derision when they lose?

If his accomplishments are so run of the mill, why is he the only coach to ever coach Canada to consecutive Gold Medals, with an unbeaten roster along the way?

Lots of that going on in this thread

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When given the same roster essentially as Brent, Hartley's team finished 24th overall in the league.

Some probably forget it due to his recent success but until the team turned it around following the departure of Iginla, Hartley was on the hot-seat as well because that first season of his, the Flames SUCKED.

If we're holding them to the same standard here, Brent Sutter got more out of his veteran lineup than Hartley got out of his.

That's not a sleight to Hartley, it's a defense of the malarky that Brent wasn't a good coach of an NHL roster. He got more out of them than maybe any coach in the league would have, and the evidence is comparing his team to Hartley and Playfair's opportunities with similar rosters.

Good post Flash, some interesting thoughts. I still don't agree that Brent was a good NHL coach and certainly doesn't think what Brent did with Calgary was impressive.

We can say Hartley had essentially the same roster and did worse than Brent Sutter to suggest Brent's a good coach but can't we also look at Mike Keenan and Brent Sutter? Sutter had arguably a better roster, one of the biggest UFA acquisitions in recent memory join his team, Mike Keenan didn't have Jay Bouwmeester on his roster. His total and complete mishandling of Bouwmeester will always stick out in my mind, there are other things (taking Iginla off the PK, though Keenan was guilty of that too). He saddled Bouwmeester with Chris Butler, a guy who played top minutes with the Flames and had to go begging for an NHL contract this summer. He also didn't let Bouwmeester play a game that is indusive to him playing well. Jay turned his game around pretty quickly under Hartley, Bob used him correctly.

The next point is something I think you've rolled your eyes at before and I get it, it might sound like I'm making an excuse for a coach I like now but I think it's a fair point. In his first season in Calgary Bob Hartley didn't have a full training camp and with the compact lockout season barely had any practise time, if at all. The NHL and NHLPA ratified the new CBA on January 9th and games started on the 19th, when did players start reporting? I can't even recall at the moment but it wasn't much before that 19th start date.

It was a short training camp, with no exhibition games to speak of. It was a major handicap for any new coaches. There is no way Hartley had time to work with his players, implement his system etc.

Edit: Further to that, the reason Hartley came in in the first place was it was clear Brent wasn't coming back. He was either fired or didn't want to come back, by the sounds of it, him and Lowry were quite happy to move on knowing the flames were going to continue on the same tired direction.

No disrespect but I doubt him and Lowry were happy to move on, they effectively fire. I'm sure either would have prefered NHL contracts to not having them. You almost make it seem like Brent Sutter and Lowry walked away from the situation and not the Flames who showed them the door. You're almost twisting the story here to make it better for them. They weren't offered contracts because Feaster wanted to bring in Hartley. Hartley wasn't brought in because Sutter didn't want to come back. Small but important twist IMO.

That's when Hartley enters the picture as a guy who was supposed to whip the roster into shape. Team sucked, Feaster was trying to re-sign Iginla, Iginla refused forcing Feaster's hand and the rest is pretty much history.

Again, a little correction on the twist here. From all reports it was Feaster who came to Iginla for a trade, not the big bad Iginla forcing his hand. Maybe I missed something, maybe I've completely forgotten but I don't remember much talk of Feaster trying to re-sign Iginla and Iginla refusing, forcing Feaster's hand.

[1stLand]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Not sure how we got on to Brent, but the problem on his teams was leadership. You have a terrible captain on your team who refuses to buy into the concept of team it is tough to win. The Avalanche say hi this year, or maybe Roy does not know about winning either. This crap about a guy whose teams averaged 96 points a season in the NHL as an awful coach is laughable. I imagine Brent is back in Red Deer polishing the Stanley Cup rings wondering what the problem was on his teams.

If Brent was an awful NHL coach, so was Playfair, Keenan, and Hartley with that putrid group of players. We saw what Darryl could do with that group in Game 7 against the Ducks at home years earlier. The best part about that group was the yearly garbage bag day fights between Regehr and Iggy about whether the team should play a better defensive brand of hockey. Regehr has a Cup now though, he is a winner. And he won it with that solid defensive brand of hockey, the wingers on his team even backcheck.

Pretty sure you are not allowed to Criticize Iggy on this Forum.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

Pretty sure you are not allowed to Criticize Iggy on this Forum.

[edslunch]

It's ironic that the Flames are playing with Brent's Wolfpack mentality now

[haiku]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Not sure how we got on to Brent, but the problem on his teams was leadership. You have a terrible captain on your team who refuses to buy into the concept of team it is tough to win. The Avalanche say hi this year, or maybe Roy does not know about winning either. This crap about a guy whose teams averaged 96 points a season in the NHL as an awful coach is laughable. I imagine Brent is back in Red Deer polishing the Stanley Cup rings wondering what the problem was on his teams.

If Brent was an awful NHL coach, so was Playfair, Keenan, and Hartley with that putrid group of players. We saw what Darryl could do with that group in Game 7 against the Ducks at home years earlier. The best part about that group was the yearly garbage bag day fights between Regehr and Iggy about whether the team should play a better defensive brand of hockey. Regehr has a Cup now though, he is a winner. And he won it with that solid defensive brand of hockey, the wingers on his team even backcheck.

this post is awful
brent sutter is terrible
butler. first pairing.

[Tinordi]

Brent never had a hope with that rotten core led by Iginla and friends. The points a good one, same roster and Hartley did even worse.

Anyway, good discussion but Feaster was clearly not operating under the same field manual as Sutter. Too get the job Feaster had to say what they wanted to hear, that's not on Feaster that's on ownership.

Brent was very clear with the organization that it wasn't good enough to win -they needed to rebuild- and they choose to ignore him. The more that time goes on the better Brent looks.

[MrMastodonFarm]

We can fabricate all the excuses in the world, we can distort and skew history to fit the narrative we wish, fact of the matter is Brent Sutter isn't a good NHL coach. He had three seasons here and missed the playoffs all three times. Since being let go he hasn't even had close to a sniff of an NHL offer. He had a negative effect in New Jersey, losing in the 1st round of the playoffs both times. The team had previously made the 2nd round two seasons in a row. They would go on to make the Stanley cup finals two years later, after he left.

He was a failed coach in Calgary, wasn't offered a new deal and returned to junior.

The more time that goes on, it still looks the same. Brent is still in the WHL.

[Enoch Root]

The team was already in decline, but IMO, BSutter ran it into the ground. He was unable to work with what he had and find a game-plan that utilized his assets.

There was no fun, no optimism, and no direction under his reign.

Yes, the core tuned him out. Is that the core's fault, or his? (probably some of both).

Yes, Hartley's record with the same team was even worse. But IMO, their death spiral had already been launched and Hartley just happened to be the guy here to watch it. I doubt any coach would have put up a better record.

I don't throw all the blame on BSutter's back by any stretch.

But how anyone can conclude his tenure here was anything but a failure is beyond me.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

We can fabricate all the excuses in the world, we can distort and skew history to fit the narrative we wish, fact of the matter is Brent Sutter isn't a good NHL coach. He had three seasons here and missed the playoffs all three times. Since being let go he hasn't even had close to a sniff of an NHL offer. He had a negative effect in New Jersey, losing in the 1st round of the playoffs both times. The team had previously made the 2nd round two seasons in a row. They would go on to make the Stanley cup finals two years later, after he left.

He was a failed coach in Calgary, wasn't offered a new deal and returned to junior.

The more time that goes on, it still looks the same. Brent is still in the WHL.

How can you say Brent is a bad NHL head coach when his record is almost .600? That would mean NHL head coaches with .500 winning percentages would be beyond bad instead of average as .500 indicates. He did a fantastic job with the Devils and IMO too many Flames fans like to pretend that the leadership in that locker room wasn't nearly as poor as it really was (we all know who is the main reason for that) by blaming Brent for missing the playoffs in those three seasons.

[CaptainYooh]

^ that for sure. But there is one more thing. Again, both Brent and Hartley were the wrong coaches for the team we've had. We did not have a bad team. In fact we've had a team laden with good individual talent, many of which are still playing productively, when used properly. Darryl Sutter was the best coach for that team, because he was able to instill confidence in players about his game system, right or wrong. Systems do work when they are not only followed blindly but also believed in by all players. Scotty Bowman would have also been a great coach for that team. Because he built the game around the individual talents of individual players when he saw the merit of it and, at the same time, he could have been a hardas.. with players that he thought should have played the strict system without too much improvisation. Just like Darryl, Brent was rigid about his system but he did not have the experience and ability to effectively deliver the message to older, more experienced NHL players that don't give respect to their coaches unconditionally, like WHL kids.

The point of my initial post on the previous page was that Hartley was (and is) of the same coaching breed as Brent; thus, hiring him was either a huge gamble or a nepotist move by Feaster, or both. Not a visionary move by any stretch.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How can you say Brent is a bad NHL head coach when his record is almost .600? That would mean NHL head coaches with .500 winning percentages would be beyond bad instead of average as .500 indicates. He did a fantastic job with the Devils and IMO too many Flames fans like to pretend that the leadership in that locker room wasn't nearly as poor as it really was (we all know who is the main reason for that) by blaming Brent for missing the playoffs in those three seasons.

How did he do a fantastic job with the Devils? They went from making the 2nd round twice in a row before him, to only making the playoffs both times under him? If I remember correctly New Jersey fans didn't give two poops when he left. The general reaction was meh.

The mishandling of Jay Bouwmeeester and the continued use of Chris Butler in a key role sum it up better than anything.

Hopefully Brent Sutter gets another go at it at some point, I'd love to see him with another shot. Doesn't look like it'll happen anytime soon though, the only sniff he seems to have had was from Edmonton, and they went another direction. A fabulous coach, just waiting in the wings, and no teams have taken him?