Israel warns: free soldier or PM dies

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

And the same ones that are condemning the actions of Israel would be the same ones saying "he had it coming" if Bush was snatched.

The double standard goes both ways.

And who is defending Hamas here?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And who is defending Hamas here?

There are a few, RedMileStyle for one, but that's besides the point.

There always seems to be an anti-US, or an "anything that happens to the US is deserved" viewpoint that is exhibited during these threads, and it's usually the same people every time. Then, when something similar happens elsewhere in the world (ie: not to the US), it's heavilly condemned.

The bias and double standard is rampant on both sides, not just one. That's my only point.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I'm not sure how anyone can defend the actions of Israel. If someone had snatched Bush, the same people lauding the actions of Israel would be the same one condemning those that snatched Bush. The double standard never ceases to amaze me.

Maybe HAMAS should quit kidnapping Israeli soldiers.....and become responsible for their actions....double standard indeed.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And who is defending Hamas here?

Are you? Or do you condemn them for kidnapping Israeli citizens/soldiers, just like you condemn Israel for fighting back?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by calculoso

There are a few, RedMileStyle for one, but that's besides the point.

There always seems to be an anti-US, or an "anything that happens to the US is deserved" viewpoint that is exhibited during these threads, and it's usually the same people every time. Then, when something similar happens elsewhere in the world (ie: not to the US), it's heavilly condemned.

Its usually the same people going the other way too. This isn't a debate where 'a bunch of lefties just cause problems and make up lies', its a legitimate discussion on politics. If you can't stand anti-US viewpoints, or think they're completely unwarranted, thats your opinion, but its certainly not a fact.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Maybe HAMAS should quit kidnapping Israeli soldiers.....and become responsible for their actions....double standard indeed.

Maybe Israel should mind their P's and Q's and stay the hell out of areas where they put their soldiers at risk. This soldier wasn't snatched off the streets of Tel Aviv.

Originally Posted by Azure

Are you? Or do you condemn them for kidnapping Israeli citizens/soldiers, just like you condemn Israel for fighting back?

I condemn them for actions against the general population, yes. I don't condemn them for targeting soldiers that are in their territory. Walk a mile in their shoes. What would you do if a foreign force invaded and occupied Pincher Creek? Would you sit idly by as you were forced out of your homes and off of property you rightly saw as yours? Or would you fight back?

[Azure]

Maybe Israel should mind their P's and Q's and stay the hell out of areas where they put their soldiers at risk. This soldier wasn't snatched off the streets of Tel Aviv.

And you know where he was kidnapped, because....?

I condemn them for actions against the general population, yes. I don't condemn them for targeting soldiers that are in their territory. Walk a mile in their shoes. What would you do if a foreign force invaded and occupied Pincher Creek? Would you sit idly by as you were forced out of your homes and off of property you rightly saw as yours? Or would you fight back?

But you condemn Israel for taking the same approach in order to get their soldier back? Wow.

[Azure]

A top Israeli official hinted for the first time that Israel was prepared to swap Palestinian prisoners for a captured soldier, saying Friday that the prisoners could be released as a goodwill gesture after the 19-year-old corporal was freed.
It was not immediately clear whether public security minister Avi Dichter was speaking for the government or expressing a personal opinion.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/07/D8IN8II00.html
So where is the response from HAMAS?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

And you know where he was kidnapped, because....?

Because it was in the news that he was from a forward unit? I didn't think this was rocket science?

But you condemn Israel for taking the same approach in order to get their soldier back? Wow.

WTF??? The Israelis are the occupying force. They are the ones that are in the other country (per se). A comparable to what you are suggesting would be if another country invaded Canada, and you kidnapped one of their soldiers in response, and they responded by kidnapping Ralph Klein and demanded the return of their soldier. How freakin' stupid is that, and how small and silly does that make the invading army look?

Come on, this is just sheer stupidity on the Israeli's part. If Canada did this we would all be on our feet demanding answers from our government. There are some things that just aren't done by civilized nations, and kidnapping and extortion are two of them. What's next that becomes acceptable to you people? Public executions at dawn?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

WTF??? The Israelis are the occupying force. They are the ones that are in the other country (per se). A comparable to what you are suggesting would be if another country invaded Canada, and you kidnapped one of their soldiers in response, and they responded by kidnapping Ralph Klein and demanded the return of their soldier. How freakin' stupid is that, and how small and silly does that make the invading army look?

Come on, this is just sheer stupidity on the Israeli's part. If Canada did this we would all be on our feet demanding answers from our government. There are some things that just aren't done by civilized nations, and kidnapping and extortion are two of them. What's next that becomes acceptable to you people? Public executions at dawn?

Israel is the occupying force? According to who?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/07/D8IN8II00.html
So where is the response from HAMAS?

I'm sure they will be getting their press agent right on it.

That story is from today, so I don't think you'll see any reply for the next two or three days.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Israel is the occupying force? According to who?

According to Palestinians and Arabs. Have you some how slept through the last 60 years?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

According to Palestinians and Arabs. Have you some how slept through the last 60 years?

Who cares what the Palestinians think/say? According to the UN, Israel is a recognized nation.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I'm sure they will be getting their press agent right on it.

That story is from today, so I don't think you'll see any reply for the next two or three days.

The soldier is probably already dead, and the HAMAS leaders are crapping their pants because of it.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...122916667.html

Palestinian sources said the Hamas-led government has disappeared over the last two days.

"You won't find one Hamas minister either at home or in his office," a source said.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Who cares what the Palestinians think/say? According to the UN, Israel is a recognized nation.

Wow. Just wow.

Jesus, I hope the U.N. recognizes Israel, the're the *******s who created it! You're right, who cares about the people who liven i that region for the past couple thousand years. What do they have to say about the whole thing? Man, I can guess what your opinion is of how to handle the indiginous peoples of the Americas too.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

The soldier is probably already dead, and the HAMAS leaders are crapping their pants because of it.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...122916667.html


Palestinian sources said the Hamas-led government has disappeared over the last two days.

"You won't find one Hamas minister either at home or in his office," a source said.

Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because the prime minister was kidnapped and is being held hostage with a gun to his head? So what minister in his right mnd is going to be hanging around waiting to be next?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Wow. Just wow.

Jesus, I hope the U.N. recognizes Israel, the're the *******s who created it! You're right, who cares about the people who liven i that region for the past couple thousand years. What do they have to say about the whole thing? Man, I can guess what your opinion is of how to handle the indiginous peoples of the Americas too.

I was just wondering what your proposed solution is to the problem Lanny? I'm not the biggest fan of the way the state of Israel was created, but it is pretty much a dead issue in my eyes. It is created, the UN or the US isn't going to let the Palestines have it back in the forseeable future.

If the UN decided to give away Calgary to the Native Americans, I'd probably be pretty ****ed and fight over it initially, but you'd think after 60+ years they might just decide to settle somewhere else and move on. Especially when it is pretty damned clear that you attempts to get Israel back are pretty damned futile.

I just think what is done, is done and it is time to move on.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Almost a word for word quote from the Moonbat left of the their summation of the Iraqi war minus the Oil.

Lets start with the terrible abuses at Abu Gharib.

Brought up by those who love to discredit the war and the US in general. Anti-Americanism tends to be the main motivator. You'd think the Americans were lining up 10's of thousands for gassing. Unfortunately for those that believe this load of stink....The abuses by the Americans at Abu Gharib can be summed up as such: Pink panties on head, naked male pyramid building photo opportunities by real losers who are now behind bars themselves. No torture took place. No one was murdered.

Illigal war. Well considering that Saddam had broken the treaty that hs government signed from the last Gulf War saying that if he did not live up to his end of the bargain the coalitions forces were within their rights to attack makes this point is moot. The UN being useless (anyone truely not beleive that the UN is ineffective in its own mandate now? Dafur?) couldn't sum up enough will power to do what was needed. As a matter of fact they were on Saddam's payroll.

WMD. Well they did find them. 500 of them. To believe that the Bush administration lied about WMD is to believe that the Russian, French, CIA, British intelligence and the UN itself lied about their belief that Saddam had these weapons. Thats ignoring the the startling facts that Saddam harrassed weapons inspectors and then eventually kicked them out. YES, VERY NORMAL governmental procedures when you are NOT hiding something.

But lets not let these things get in the way.

Yes, let's not let these things get in the way:

98 detainees are KNOWN (let alone how many the U.S. is covering up) to have died since August 2002 in the custody of US officials abroad. The U.S. military itself classifies 34 of these deaths as suspected or confirmed homicides. But in half of all deaths, the cause was never announced or was reported as undetermined. At least eight, and as many as twelve, were tortured to death. In only 12 of the 34 admitted homicides have any military personnel or US officials been punished. In the cases of detainees tortured to death, only half have resulted in punishment. The harshiest prison sentence meted out to anyone involved in a torture-related death was five months.
- Command's Responsibility: Detainee Deaths in U.S. Custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, released in Februrary by Human Rights First.

And these are just the extreme cases. There are many ways you can torture a prisoner without leaving marks - hooding, exploitation of phobias, stress positions, sensory deprivation... Donald Rumsfeld gave formal, written approval for these techniques along with others normally proscribed by the Army Field Manual.

By the way, torturing is illegal. But again, since you support this war, you have no respect for international law to begin with.

I think it is funny how you quote the failings of the UN in Sudan, but I certainly do not see any American, or Canadian, troops there. Why are they in Iraq but not in Darfur where huge atrocities are taking place? The UN is only as powerful as it's member-states make it, it is not a global government. Are you willing to send Canadian troops to Darfur, guaranteeing casualties? Do you think the Canadian government under Harper would even consider sacrificing lives in an area that guarantees no economical, political or tactical importance? Why did Rwanda fail? No country was willing to donate resources to Africa. Regardless of what is happening in other parts of the world, the bottom line is the world came to a conclusion in regards to Iraq, and the U.S. did not listen.

Funny you should mention that Saddam was not acting normal... The U.S. has never allowed the IAEA weapon inspectors in. What does that say about them? Who supplied Saddam with all those weapons in the first place to fight the Soviets? Yeah... I'll give you a hint, their president is a moron.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I was just wondering what your proposed solution is to the problem Lanny? I'm not the biggest fan of the way the state of Israel was created, but it is pretty much a dead issue in my eyes. It is created, the UN or the US isn't going to let the Palestines have it back in the forseeable future.

If the UN decided to give away Calgary to the Native Americans, I'd probably be pretty ****ed and fight over it initially, but you'd think after 60+ years they might just decide to settle somewhere else and move on. Especially when it is pretty damned clear that you attempts to get Israel back are pretty damned futile.

I just think what is done, is done and it is time to move on.

My solution? Give the Palestinians a homeland as well. Split Israel in two and give half to the Palestinians. Hey, it worked for Solomon.



Frankly, I think this is the only solution. Both are making claim to the turf, so split it up, negotiate settlements across the board, make it binding, and let the healing begin. A settlement needs to be enforced on BOTH parties, and done so by the international community. The international community created this mess, they have to clean it up. They need to arbitrate the settlement and then make the two sides live by it. The international community needs to police it afterwards and treat both sides equally. That is the solution.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Because it was in the news that he was from a forward unit? I didn't think this was rocket science?

From a random patrol? Was the unit looking for who sent rockets / bombs / etc (whatever has been fairly commonly fired into Israel)?