Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Anybody know what Nenshi means by there being a large amount of environmental contamination in the west village? What kind of clean up are they looking at?

http://www.calgaryrivervalleys.org/f...011Mar2011.pdf

Here's a somewhat useful link. It was site of Canada Creosote Company for 40 yrs up to 1964. It's the reason there's a concrete wall currently as the banks of the bow along this stretch.

There was some preliminary estimates for remediation done in 2009. It's not cheap.

A recent related story

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ners-1.2494446

[#-3]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Calgary's transit is used so much for a few reasons:
-big business downtown. Almost all of the head offices are concentrated downtown. We've got a huge population that works downtown M-F
-parking is unaffordable downtown. Second highest rates in N America after NYC

People take the c train/bus because they can't afford to park downtown, there aren't enough parking spaces.

Take a look at the future growth of the city and almost all of it is concentrated in 2 areas. The deep SE and the far north central. Calgary needs that NCSE lrt line built asap along with the 8th ave underground subway to aleviate the backup on 7th ave.

These projects are going to cost billions.

Your comment is fair,

But was more saying that crappy public transit seems to be the cry of some middle class north american that will never take transit anyway.

I haven't used the other systems but just based on ridership alone I really doubt that Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver are so far ahead of Calgary that is note worthy. I'm sure they all need big improvements constantly.

[Stay Golden]

A handful of concerts doesn’t seem like it’s worth $450 million / year — Chima Nkemdirim

Flames brass have publicly touted concerts as an even bigger problem than the sightlines, or size of the lower seating bowl, punier than most comparable NHL barns.
“And, more importantly, the investment in a building and what it brings to a downtown core in terms of entertainment,” Brian Burke, the Flames operations president, told the Chamber of Commerce in June. “A lot of bands don’t come and play the Saddledome because the building is antiquated.
“The weight load that the roof will bear is tiny, so a lot of the big stage acts won’t come here. It’s not just what a hockey team gets and what it adds for hockey. It’s what it adds to a downtown core. And we need a new building in Calgary.”

Narrow sighted viewpoint from the Mayor's office. Perhaps Nenshi has conveniently forgotten the Dome was built for the unveiling 1988 Olympics.
How old was Nenshi when it was built 16 years old.
Maybe he should consider that instead of his pompous attitude.
I find it sadly ironic on his profile on yahoo he is wearing a Calgary Flames Jersey.
Should be changed ASAP.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Narrow sighted viewpoint from the Mayor's office. Perhaps Nenshi has conveniently forgotten the Dome was built for the unveiling 1988 Olympics.
How old was Nenshi when it was built 16 years old.
Maybe he should consider that instead of his pompous attitude.
I find it sadly ironic on his profile on yahoo he is wearing a Calgary Flames Jersey.
Should be changed ASAP.

Hmm, so questioning public money for a new arena means one is not a Flames fan?

That's ridiculous.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Hmm, so questioning public money for a new arena means one is not a Flames fan?

That's ridiculous.

It's not just a Flames fan issue it is a Calgary issue. Nenshi will not support city funding for pro sport facility's even though they are staples in the community of Calgary.
He will ensure that no amount of public funding is directed to the Flames or Stampeders for new buildings.
When the time comes to an actual vote to provide funding for a new arena Nenshi will not vote in favor. And that time will come, so I say he will vote against it time will tell if I am right.
To answer your question. Yes he should remove the jersey if he is not going to vote in favor of the Flames. It is absolutely hypocritical, you can't see that.
Nenshi has already said in the past he is not in favor of providing funding to any privately owned professional sports franchise.
He has also said in the past that not 1 concert has bypassed Calgary due to the Saddle Dome.
Fwy don't bother asking for proof of a quote you know he has said this and not just once.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by #-3

Its interesting to me that people always say this about Calgary Transit.

I personally feel that transit needs to continue to grow, be made easier to use, more direct, and has to become an early priority in new communities rather than an after thought much like roads are now.

But all of that being said I have often heard that Calgary has a vary high per capita transit use for North American, and is one of the fastest growing next works (which is probably more about keeping up with population growth, than improving the system on an individual basis).

Have you extensively used transit in these other places?
I have only used transit in Osaka & Las Vegas, and only a couple of times each.

Osaka was in a whole different league when you look a frequincy, distribution, and accessibility, but the experience wasn't all that different, waiting for buses outside of subway stations, having to transfer a couple of times to get where you want to go. And over crowded at peak times.

Las Vegas, I think pales con comparison to Calgary. And in terms of size/geography the cities are pretty close, But vary vary different demographically. Much smaller train next work, and it seems like less frequinecy in bus's but that's a really hard thing to gauge if you are not using it day-in day-out. The do have 2 privately owned trams that don't connect to the public infrastructure, but thats a special situation that only works in Las Vegas, and Disney World

I was raised in Montreal and spent a lot of time in Vancouver when I was living in Victoria. They just have better service, more service (i.e, they serve a greater area) and less issues. The CTrain's problem is it isn't a fully segregated system, so when you have many areas where trains and pedestrians/vehicles can get involved, it's going to effect the service. Also used transit in Seattle, San Francisco, Toronto and Amsterdam and they all have a much smoother transit experience than Calgary does. Outside Montreal and Toronto they all have direct commuter access to the airport via train, a major plus. Part of it is they all invested a lot in transit early on, whereas Calgary is doing heavy investing now when the network is more difficult to integrate with the city.

That's why things like the North-Central/SE line has to be built ASAP or it'll be more difficult and costly as the areas where the line could be built become more populated and built in. People talk about an arena and how it relates to a "world class city", but all the cities I listed for great transit are considered or close to being considered world class cities and they all have excellent transit. I think excellent transit is a much better indicator of a world class city than an arena, otherwise Edmonton will be considered more world class in a few years just by erecting a building, which is preposterous.

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

It's not just a Flames fan issue it is a Calgary issue. Nenshi will not support city funding for pro sport facility's even though they are staples in the community of Calgary.
He will ensure that no amount of public funding is directed to the Flames or Stampeders for new buildings.
When the time comes to an actual vote to provide funding for a new arena Nenshi will not vote in favor. And that time will come, so I say he will vote against it time will tell if I am right.
To answer your question. Yes he should remove the jersey if he is not going to vote in favor of the Flames. It is absolutely hypocritical, you can't see that.
Nenshi has already said in the past he is not in favor of providing funding to any privately owned professional sports franchise.
He has also said in the past that not 1 concert has bypassed Calgary due to the Saddle Dome.
Fwy don't bother asking for proof of a quote you know he has said this and not just once.

Staples of the community? You know who is a bigger staple? Husky...or Cenevous..or any company that employs thousands of people because without employment no one is living here. Should we subsidize all the new buildings they'd want? Or course not, you'd think it's absurd to do that. Yet for a pro sports team it's completely acceptable. It's strange how that's all it takes to change some peoples opinions.

Nenshi can love the Flames and not want to give them a handout. A lot of fans of the team fell the exact same way. It's not anti-Flames to not want to pay for a new arena, it's understanding that the arguments for any public funding have mostly been debunked, and the city having much more pressing issues. Unless you're advocating for your taxes to go up to pay for the arena?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Staples of the community? You know who is a bigger staple? Husky...or Cenevous..or any company that employs thousands of people because without employment no one is living here. Should we subsidize all the new buildings they'd want? Or course not, you'd think it's absurd to do that. Yet for a pro sports team it's completely acceptable. It's strange how that's all it takes to change some peoples opinions.

Nenshi can love the Flames and not want to give them a handout. A lot of fans of the team fell the exact same way. It's not anti-Flames to not want to pay for a new arena, it's understanding that the arguments for any public funding have mostly been debunked, and the city having much more pressing issues. Unless you're advocating for your taxes to go up to pay for the arena?

Husky and Cenovus aren't employing Calgarians because they want to. They have to in order to take advantage of profiting off the province's resources. If anything they are only here to make their money and would leave the minute they no longer find it profitable. The Flames owners lost money for years on the Flames just over a decade ago and don't have to own the Flame as they could easily sell them to an American businessman that may want to move them or may want to be the next Jerry Jones. Just ask Winnipegers what happens when you lose your NHL team. Say what you want but it's a big part of Canadian culture and comparing the Flames owners to Oil & Gas companies is disingenuous at best. You will need to do better than this if you want people to take your opinion seriously.

If the CDN dollar sinks to levels we saw 15 years ago things are really going to get challenging and the Flames really will need a new facility to ensure they won't be forced into a similar situation as they were in the 90's. I'm not saying that things will get bad but we have probably seen the last of the Flames spending to the cap in hopes of being a cup contender as long as they are still playing in the Dome.

[Senator Clay Davis]

If the Flames leave Calgary tomorrow, the city will live on believe it or not. If all the O&G companies left town tomorrow, the city would collapse and the population would flee. The Flames are not an essential component of life, being gainfully employed is (or how else do you expect to attend a game?). Those companies are more valuable than the Flames to Calgary without question, not even close. The Flames bring you entertainment and as such are no different than a movie theatre. You'll find other forms of entertainment if the Flames leave. If there's no good employment here? You're either moving or having a crappy quality of life.

O&G and many more corporations are here because of the tax structure of Alberta (namely, it's low). If the tax structure sucked they'd simply have their head offices somewhere else but still have operations in the Oil Sands. Having a NHL team around has little to nothing to do with it. If tomorrow Nova Scotia said it was lowering its corporate tax rate to 1%, many corporations would be setting up shop there. Happens all the time in America where over half of all publicly traded companies are incorporated in Delaware. Companies go where the taxes are cheap, and Alberta is the cheapest in Canada.

[Weitz]

Here is a question to some of you saying that the new Arena needs to be downtown:

What happens if in the next few years more companies follow in Imperial Oils footsteps and move away from downtown (quarry park)?

In Houston which is the O&G hub of the USA there isn't a "downtown" like there is in Calgary. The major O&G companies have "Campuses" that are spread out among the city. Which means sales guys usually only make 1 or 2 "sales calls" a day.

In fact I would go as far as saying that the current growth in Calgary would make it unsustainable for everyone to continue working out of downtown. The road system and transit system just isn't designed for a continual growth of people.

Edit: This is in relation to some posts that were saying the arena needs to be close to the corporate people that get tickets to games.

[Tyler]

Imperial is an anomaly. Outside of IOL, real O&G business happens downtown and will continue to for years to come.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Here is a question to some of you saying that the new Arena needs to be downtown:

What happens if in the next few years more companies follow in Imperial Oils footsteps and move away from downtown (quarry park)?

In Houston which is the O&G hub of the USA there isn't a "downtown" like there is in Calgary. The major O&G companies have "Campuses" that are spread out among the city. Which means sales guys usually only make 1 or 2 "sales calls" a day.

In fact I would go as far as saying that the current growth in Calgary would make it unsustainable for everyone to continue working out of downtown. The road system and transit system just isn't designed for a continual growth of people.

Edit: This is in relation to some posts that were saying the arena needs to be close to the corporate people that get tickets to games.

This isn't Houston though. For the foreseeable future, downtown is where the business is, and that won't change. There simply isn't enough firms moving into suburban locations for the Flames to consider moving out to an area that far. Remember, there are no hotels or abundant amenities in those areas, which is a huge requirement for ticket purchasers, corporate clients and casual fans.

For a proper arena district, which is what is being looked at, you need to have not just a hockey experience but a full entertainment and hospitality infrastructure. That's the way all arena districts are being built these days, and they're proving to be very successful.

Columbus and LA is a good example of this. Rogers Arena, the ACC, the MTS Centre, the Bell Centre are all located downtown. Hell, when Edmonton and Detroit get their districts, they're going to be world-class.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

If the Flames leave Calgary tomorrow, the city will live on believe it or not. If all the O&G companies left town tomorrow, the city would collapse and the population would flee. The Flames are not an essential component of life, being gainfully employed is (or how else do you expect to attend a game?). Those companies are more valuable than the Flames to Calgary without question, not even close. The Flames bring you entertainment and as such are no different than a movie theatre. You'll find other forms of entertainment if the Flames leave. If there's no good employment here? You're either moving or having a crappy quality of life.

O&G and many more corporations are here because of the tax structure of Alberta (namely, it's low). If the tax structure sucked they'd simply have their head offices somewhere else but still have operations in the Oil Sands. Having a NHL team around has little to nothing to do with it. If tomorrow Nova Scotia said it was lowering its corporate tax rate to 1%, many corporations would be setting up shop there. Happens all the time in America where over half of all publicly traded companies are incorporated in Delaware. Companies go where the taxes are cheap, and Alberta is the cheapest in Canada.

Of course jobs are more important than a hockey team - thanks tips!

But that does not change the fact that sports franchises are in fact important to the community.

A perfect example currently sits 280 kms to the north. If the Oilers didn't matter, would people really pay money to put up billboards?

It is part of the human condition. It's our tribe against their tribe (and yes, I know that the players aren't actually from the tribe, but that doesn't seem to matter to us humans - as long as they're wearing our paint, they are us!).

There is no question that sports teams are part of the fabric of what makes a city a community.

Simple observation proves this unequivocally.

Pulling out the 'the city would live on without them' argument is emotional rhetoric.

What this conversation needs is sensibility. There is a solution. Trying to help find it is far more useful than emotionally charged, extreme-point-of-view, soap-box speaches.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Muta

This isn't Houston though. For the foreseeable future, downtown is where the business is, and that won't change. There simply isn't enough firms moving into suburban locations for the Flames to consider moving out to an area that far. Remember, there are no hotels or abundant amenities in those areas, which is a huge requirement for ticket purchasers, corporate clients and casual fans.

For a proper arena district, which is what is being looked at, you need to have not just a hockey experience but a full entertainment and hospitality infrastructure. That's the way all arena districts are being built these days, and they're proving to be very successful.

Columbus and LA is a good example of this. Rogers Arena, the ACC, the MTS Centre, the Bell Centre are all located downtown. Hell, when Edmonton and Detroit get their districts, they're going to be world-class.

While I agree with you, things can change. It wasn't that long ago that most felt that no one would live downtown and that cities were going to turn into giant donuts with the core being an empty wasteland.

That has completely reversed in the last 20 years.

Weitz makes a valid point that things can change. There are always choices.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I've said from the beginning: Support infrastructure is fine, paying for the building is not. And I suspect I represent the majority opinion on that one. I'd be shocked if any more than 30% of people would actually support giving them free land or paying for the building. Oil is going down the crapper and budgets are going to have to be tightened. Public money to a sports arena is going to be a non-starter for most people. Again, virtually every study done that was not done by the ownership group trying to promote its agenda says public money to sports arenas is a spectacular waste of money. As taxpayers, we should demand efficient use of our money, and not giving it to what has been proven to be a bad idea.

Sports franchises provide escapism and entertainment, but that's it. That should not be subsidized by the public, or should we do the same to movie theatres? Sports franchises are important to a degree, but not important enough to justify getting a taxpayer subsidy.

This is a profitable team, it is not shedding money. It wants a building for free, and their ultimate goal in doing so is to make more money with more luxury boxes and fewer but more expensive seats. The general public does not win with a new arena it has to subsidize and then has less access to. I expect them to try, and ultimately fail, to get any money. And then the fun will really start.

[GioforPM]

I think it's in the Province and City's interest to kick in if the district is built in the west end, due to the cleanup which will be done, as well as the revitalization of that area. A makeover will benefit the public in the improvements which will be made to infrastructure, in addition to the short and long term jobs created (which would happen anywhere they put it).

all of the talk now is posturing: Burke is trying to create some impetus in the public. Nenshi is a politician - he has to put a finger in the air like this, and if its not supported by the majority, he has to work carefully.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

While I agree with you, things can change. It wasn't that long ago that most felt that no one would live downtown and that cities were going to turn into giant donuts with the core being an empty wasteland.

That has completely reversed in the last 20 years.

Weitz makes a valid point that things can change. There are always choices.

Not in our lifetime. I'd place big money on the arena going up in or right next to downtown.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Nenshi is a politician - he has to put a finger in the air like this, and if its not supported by the majority, he has to work carefully.

I'm pretty sure he has already put up his finger in the air and reached his conclusions about public support for municipal funding for an arena. There will be more public debate, PR, and polls going forward. The Flames are just getting their PR campaign started. But Nenshi and city council are not just testing the waters here - they know public opinion is strongly against public funding.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Muta

Not in our lifetime. I'd place big money on the arena going up in or right next to downtown.

You missed the point.

I think (as does almost everyone) that downtown is the best location. And I am all but certain that's where it will go.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't choices.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm pretty sure he has already put up his finger in the air and reached his conclusions about public support for municipal funding for an arena. There will be more public debate, PR, and polls going forward. The Flames are just getting their PR campaign started. But Nenshi and city council are not just testing the waters here - they know public opinion is strongly against public funding.

I'd be willing to bet that public opinion would be strongly in favour of some intelligent ideas.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You missed the point.

I think (as does almost everyone) that downtown is the best location. And I am all but certain that's where it will go.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't choices.

Yeah, there's choices, but some are much better than others. Downtown is the best, and most logical, choice at this point in time.