Dramatic changes to the World Cup?

[Finger Cookin]

"Can't hack it" doesn't seem quite right. Can't get together a consistent event with the consent and involvment of the main sport organizers and participants seems closer.

Soccer has the World Cup by FIFA, a long established and prestigious event that is on a consistent fixed schedule.
Tennis has the existing annual Grand Slams with the ATP and WTA involved along with the top players in the world.
Baseball has the World Series for NA, presumably nothing for Japan, and no history of international best-on-best save for the WBC that is in its infancy. EDIT: Apparently there was a Baseball World Cup for a number of years that I was unaware of, but I'm not sure how it fit in with MLB. Apparently it was replaced by the WBC after the IOC voted baseball out of the Olympics.

And so on and so on.

For a true World Cup of Hockey to work, you would need something that has the sponsorship and blessing of both the NHL and the IIHF. Possibly the KHL as well. If the NHL and its ownership continues to try and promote and champion its own "World Cup" that it alone organizes and gets revenues (split with the NHLPA) from, it will always be undermined by the World Championships and Olympics.

This is the same reason the World Championships run annually by the IIHF doesn't have more prestige and significance. The IIHF keeps this event scheduled at the same time as the Stanley Cup playoffs, which will always prevent the best NHL players from participating and relegate them as an afterthought to North American hockey fans.

I don't like the chances of the NHL and IIHF setting aside politics and egos to get a true best-on-best tournament to replace the Olympics together. And we know the chances of the IOC, IIHF and NHL working together to find a suitable Olympic agreement in terms of timing, revenue benefit, and so on working for all three parties.

[goodyear]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Although I'm not sure what the Rest of Europe national anthem would be!

The whichever anthem that gets played before uefa champs league games.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by troutman

This has been discussed in other threads, and I think it is a long way off.

How it could work - 6 best teams from the NHL in September tournament vs 6 best teams from Europe (would replace training camp for NHL teams). I agree the NHL will be reluctant to shorthen the regular season, but they might be willing if there was a prospect of big Euro revenues.

I'm not sure I agree talent is spread evenly across UEFA. Since 1996 only one team not from Spain, Italy, Germany or England has won it. And you see the same dozen teams over and over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._League_finals

Not even remotely close. Its a definitive case of rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.

Originally Posted by goodyear

The whichever anthem that gets played before uefa champs league games.

I propose some sort of competition. Darts perhaps?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

For a true World Cup of Hockey to work, you would need something that has the sponsorship and blessing of both the NHL and the IIHF. Possibly the KHL as well. If the NHL and its ownership continues to try and promote and champion its own "World Cup" that it alone organizes and gets revenues (split with the NHLPA) from, it will always be undermined by the World Championships and Olympics.

This is the same reason the World Championships run annually by the IIHF doesn't have more prestige and significance. The IIHF keeps this event scheduled at the same time as the Stanley Cup playoffs, which will always prevent the best NHL players from participating and relegate them as an afterthought to North American hockey fans.

I don't like the chances of the NHL and IIHF setting aside politics and egos to get a true best-on-best tournament to replace the Olympics together. And we know the chances of the IOC, IIHF and NHL working together to find a suitable Olympic agreement in terms of timing, revenue benefit, and so on working for all three parties.

Why do you think this will be more of a problem today than it was 20 years ago?

[Finger Cookin]

I forget the specifics of the first two World Cups, but wasn't it largely made up of NHL players? I don't recall if a lot of international teams had players from European leagues (I don't recall much about the last one other than Canada vs. US). Not to mention the KHL and it's big contracts weren't around 20 years ago. KHL teams would be reluctant to send it's players to an NHL/NHLPA organized event for the same reason that the NHL is reluctant to send its players to the Olympics.

[waner]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I forget the specifics of the first two World Cups, but wasn't it largely made up of NHL players? I don't recall if a lot of international teams had players from European leagues (I don't recall much about the last one other than Canada vs. US). Not to mention the KHL and it's big contracts weren't around 20 years ago. KHL teams would be reluctant to send it's players to an NHL/NHLPA organized event for the same reason that the NHL is reluctant to send its players to the Olympics.

I mentioned above the KHL only really impacts Finland and Russia, and with the results Russia has had trying to pump up the KHL content on their teams might not be a bad thing to keep those plugs off their team.

Sweden, Canada, US and Switzerland had 0 KHL guys, Czechs had 4 low level guys and left off Vrbata and Hudler. I didn't check Slovakia since it is a crappy team and who cares if they are affected anyways since they are just there to get beat.

[CliffFletcher]

The Canada Cup and World Cup teams were made up of the best players from all the participating countries, irrespective of league of origin. There's no reason to believe World Cup rosters going forward would be any different from the recent Olympic rosters.

[nemanja2306]

My suggestion: make the WC a once in 4 years event with the current Olympic format and make the Olympics an U23 event. Like they do in football (soccer).

This way you make the WC matter and don't totally diminish the Olympics. And helps the NHL clubs in the process. Doable?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

My suggestion: make the WC a once in 4 years event with the current Olympic format and make the Olympics an U23 event. Like they do in football (soccer).

This way you make the WC matter and don't totally diminish the Olympics. And helps the NHL clubs in the process. Doable?

Yeah, but you forgot the part where the owners want to make money every year and stop losing, or at least not gaining, every four years at the Olympics.

[waner]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

My suggestion: make the WC a once in 4 years event with the current Olympic format and make the Olympics an U23 event. Like they do in football (soccer).

This way you make the WC matter and don't totally diminish the Olympics. And helps the NHL clubs in the process. Doable?

The U23 doesn't make much sense for hockey because NHL teams aren't giving up their guys to go to that tournament and 95% of good guys will be in NHL by 22. I think U20 (WJHC age) is what would make the most sense if they are going to go the soccer route of a youth tournament.

If they aren't going to use the NHL guys then I would just go with use whoever is willing to go and have it as b/c level tournament that people only care about because it is the Olympics.

[spuzzum]

Sochi and Vancouver Olympic ice hockey tournaments were the best of the best. National pride. You definitely know who you are cheering for. No better stage. Even if held in Korea or Botswana for all we care. I was up whenever needed to watch the games and cheer. The NHL has to continue with the Olympics, and sadly, they're going in the opposite direction.

Euro all star team from lesser hockey countries facing national countries? Foolish idea and concept. Many have illustrated the importance of cheering for "their team."

A team consisting of Italians, Germans, Austrians, Slovenians etc would be a laugh. No one would follow them, never mind the players being asked to suit up.

San Marino cheers for San Marino and they know they'll never get to the World Cup. It's called patriotism and being proud regardless of your population.

I love the Champions League idea but not sure it would fly. Logistical nightmare.

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by waner

The U23 doesn't make much sense for hockey because NHL teams aren't giving up their guys to go to that tournament and 95% of good guys will be in NHL by 22. I think U20 (WJHC age) is what would make the most sense if they are going to go the soccer route of a youth tournament.

If they aren't going to use the NHL guys then I would just go with use whoever is willing to go and have it as b/c level tournament that people only care about because it is the Olympics.

Yes, but creating an U23 will bring more stars to the tournament, but will help NHL teams as well because on most NHL teams, their star players are older than 23. IMO, hockey is the central event of the WO, and making it basically a WJ or a b/c level tournament would just reduce peoples interest.
Coming from a non-hockey country, I can tell you that during the Olympics, most turn in to watch guys like Sid, Kane, Doughty...and it does contribute to making the sport more popular. I imagine its the same in other countries as well.

Locke, I agree with you. At the end of the day, its all about the money. Which is sad, really.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

"Can't hack it" doesn't seem quite right. Can't get together a consistent event with the consent and involvment of the main sport organizers and participants seems closer.

Soccer has the World Cup by FIFA, a long established and prestigious event that is on a consistent fixed schedule.
Tennis has the existing annual Grand Slams with the ATP and WTA involved along with the top players in the world.
Baseball has the World Series for NA, presumably nothing for Japan, and no history of international best-on-best save for the WBC that is in its infancy. EDIT: Apparently there was a Baseball World Cup for a number of years that I was unaware of, but I'm not sure how it fit in with MLB. Apparently it was replaced by the WBC after the IOC voted baseball out of the Olympics.

And so on and so on.

For a true World Cup of Hockey to work, you would need something that has the sponsorship and blessing of both the NHL and the IIHF. Possibly the KHL as well. If the NHL and its ownership continues to try and promote and champion its own "World Cup" that it alone organizes and gets revenues (split with the NHLPA) from, it will always be undermined by the World Championships and Olympics.

This is the same reason the World Championships run annually by the IIHF doesn't have more prestige and significance. The IIHF keeps this event scheduled at the same time as the Stanley Cup playoffs, which will always prevent the best NHL players from participating and relegate them as an afterthought to North American hockey fans.

I don't like the chances of the NHL and IIHF setting aside politics and egos to get a true best-on-best tournament to replace the Olympics together. And we know the chances of the IOC, IIHF and NHL working together to find a suitable Olympic agreement in terms of timing, revenue benefit, and so on working for all three parties.

These weren't all long established events. Decisions could have been made somewhere along the line whether to have their own tournament or join the Olympics.

The Canada Cup was on a fixed schedule as well. Hockey decided to scrap their tournament and join the Olympics. Nobody else does this unless their own tournament is poor.

For soccer, the 1924 and 1928 Olympics was the best on best tournament. Then they decided to have the 1930, 1934, and 1938 World Cup. They withdrew from the 1932 Olympics because of the extablished World Cup and the Olympics were in Los Angeles, nobody is watching soccer anyways. It was actually replaced by American football!

Hitler brought soccer back for a best-on-best tournament in 1936. Germany suffered a shock quarterfinal defeat to Norway.

Then after the war they had to make a decision. Olympics or World Cup? They decided that the World Cup would be best-on-best and the Olympics amateur.

[waner]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

Yes, but creating an U23 will bring more stars to the tournament, but will help NHL teams as well because on most NHL teams, their star players are older than 23. IMO, hockey is the central event of the WO, and making it basically a WJ or a b/c level tournament would just reduce peoples interest.
Coming from a non-hockey country, I can tell you that during the Olympics, most turn in to watch guys like Sid, Kane, Doughty...and it does contribute to making the sport more popular. I imagine its the same in other countries as well.

I don't think it will bring many/any stars to the tournament unless they have it replace the WJHC.

The Flames aren't releasing Gaudreau, Monahan, the Avs aren't releasing MacKinnon, TB keeps Drouin, Ekblad stays in Florida. Any guy U23 in the NHL would not go to the tournament. My guess is many guys U23 in the AHL would also be kept in the AHL unless they were B level guys.

If the WJHC are going on tough to see Hockey Canada sending juniors to that and the Olympics and Hockey Canada makes a ton with these events in Canada every two years so hard to imagine why they would agree to send guys to the Olympics instead.

[waner]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

For a true World Cup of Hockey to work, you would need something that has the sponsorship and blessing of both the NHL and the IIHF. Possibly the KHL as well. If the NHL and its ownership continues to try and promote and champion its own "World Cup" that it alone organizes and gets revenues (split with the NHLPA) from, it will always be undermined by the World Championships and Olympics.

Why would the NHL need the sponsorship and blessing of the IIHF?

If they have 100% of the best hockey players in the world and 95% of the players that would be top choice for teams to play in this tournament who cares what the IIHF says?

If the NHL says no Olympics how would c level events like the World Championships and Olympics come close to undermining the events at all?

The World Championships is looked at as a joke now if the NHL wanted it could make it ten times worse by saying nobody goes to play in it at all, but they don't need to do that because who is going to say "no thanks I don't want to see Crosby vs. Ovechkin because in May I saw Eberle vs. Random KHL bum X"?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

Coming from a non-hockey country, I can tell you that during the Olympics, most turn in to watch guys like Sid, Kane, Doughty...and it does contribute to making the sport more popular. I imagine its the same in other countries as well.

Locke, I agree with you. At the end of the day, its all about the money. Which is sad, really.

Hockey at the Olympics is only the top priority of a few countries (specifically Canada.) People from China or France or the Netherlands don't give a #### about what happens in the hockey tournament. They care about the skiing events or skating events etc.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Hockey at the Olympics is only the top priority of a few countries (specifically Canada.) People from China or France or the Netherlands don't give a #### about what happens in the hockey tournament. They care about the skiing events or skating events etc.

Yeah, and thats all well and good but its part of the nature of the Olympics, no one event appeals to the entire 'fanbase.'

But:

- Canada
- USA
- Russia
- Sweden
- Finland
- Czech Rep.

Etc, etc. Care.

So, while I'd wager that not everyone cares about Olympic hockey, enough people care.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The Canada Cup was on a fixed schedule as well. Hockey decided to scrap their tournament and join the Olympics. Nobody else does this unless their own tournament is poor.

A kind of sort of, every 3-5 years, fixed schedule. And if they ditched it because it was poor, or because the logistics of it were more difficult than just joining the Olympics, there's no need to resurrect it.

[Winsor_Pilates]

This is a horrible idea, and the thought of a hockey "champions league" is even worse, nor does it have anything to do with national teams.

The World Cup of hockey is a worthy tournament and pulling away from the Olympics makes sense too; no need for gimmicks to fill the 8 teams. Let people represent their country and let countries aspire to get better. That's the only way to grow the game in those nations.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah, and thats all well and good but its part of the nature of the Olympics, no one event appeals to the entire 'fanbase.'

But:

- Canada
- USA
- Russia
- Sweden
- Finland
- Czech Rep.

Etc, etc. Care.

So, while I'd wager that not everyone cares about Olympic hockey, enough people care.

But are Finnish or Czech people going to be upset that their NHL stars are not playing? Will that decrease their fanbase?