Province takes tough stance on tobacco

[BlackArcher101]

Wait, kids are the ones smoking the flavored cigs? When I was in high school you were mocked and ridiculed for smoking anything flavored, so the majority went "hardcore" and smoked normal ones.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I'm not a smoker, but these restrictions are getting a bit ridiculous.

The cost that smokers have on the social services in this country are also ridiculous.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Azure

The cost that smokers have on the social services in this country are also ridiculous.

And the taxes smokers pay for their habit balance that equation. It's the governments responsibility to put that revenue stream where it should be used.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Azure

The cost that smokers have on the social services in this country are also ridiculous.

So all these people that used to die at 65 from massive coronaries are now living ten or fifteen years longer, many as wards of the state.

People are expensive. The only way they stop costing money is by dying. If possible, it would be nice to die while you still possess the faculties that made you a person.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

So all these people that used to die at 65 from massive coronaries are now living ten or fifteen years longer, many as wards of the state.

People are expensive. The only way they stop costing money is by dying. If possible, it would be nice to die while you still possess the faculties that made you a person.

Wrong. Very, very, very wrong. Smokers live with lots of expensive diseases for a long time before dying of copd out cancer. Smoking adds 10's to 100's of thousands of extra dollars to the health care system per person before these people die.

What you aren't including here is that smokers have much higher rates of:

-Cancer (almost all kinds). Remember that most people live long after a diagnosis of cancer, many even cured. Most people do not sure of the cancer they are diagnosed with. It is incredibly expensive to treat these cancers.
-Copd. Many, many years of puffers, ER visits due to AECOPD and the antibiotics to treat them. Diagnostic tests, Dr visitant, respiratory therapy, etc
-Hospitalizations due to the much higher rates of severe pneumonia
-much higher rates of cardiovascular disease and the treatments/surgeries to prevent them
-home visits for when the copd patient is no longer mobile
-oxygen therapy is very expensive
-microvascular complications leading to infections, etc are much more common as well and they need to be treated. One of the major risk factors for amputation
-Cataracts. One of the biggest risk factors is smoking. Removal is very expensive
-vision. Smokers are 4 times as likely to be blind in old age. There are many significant costs associated with varying for the blind
-lots and lots more


When you smoke, you're essentially inhaling little bombs (oxygen free radicals and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons). Most of these bombs go off in the lungs and damage the tissue there, but many are carried around the body by the blood stream only to damage tissues and cause cancer elsewhere. It really affects everything.


We aren't simply exchanging one death for another here. The issue is that the life of a smoker is much, much more expensive for all of us than simply their death.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Wrong. Very, very, very wrong. Smokers live with lots of expensive diseases for a long time before dying of copd out cancer. Smoking adds 10's to 100's of thousands of extra dollars to the health care system per person before these people die.

What you aren't including here is that smokers have much higher rates of:

-Cancer (almost all kinds). Remember that most people live long after a diagnosis of cancer, many even cured. Most people do not sure of the cancer they are diagnosed with. It is incredibly expensive to treat these cancers.
-Copd. Many, many years of puffers, ER visits due to AECOPD and the antibiotics to treat them. Diagnostic tests, Dr visitant, respiratory therapy, etc
-Hospitalizations due to the much higher rates of severe pneumonia
-much higher rates of cardiovascular disease and the treatments/surgeries to prevent them
-home visits for when the copd patient is no longer mobile
-oxygen therapy is very expensive
-microvascular complications leading to infections, etc are much more common as well and they need to be treated. One of the major risk factors for amputation
-Cataracts. One of the biggest risk factors is smoking. Removal is very expensive
-vision. Smokers are 4 times as likely to be blind in old age. There are many significant costs associated with varying for the blind
-lots and lots more


When you smoke, you're essentially inhaling little bombs (oxygen free radicals and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons). Most of these bombs go off in the lungs and damage the tissue there, but many are carried around the body by the blood stream only to damage tissues and cause cancer elsewhere. It really affects everything.


We aren't simply exchanging one death for another here. The issue is that the life of a smoker is much, much more expensive for all of us than simply their death.

wouldn't the solution then be to tax the smokers more then non-smokers then the extra cost would be covered?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Zethrynn

wouldn't the solution then be to tax the smokers more then non-smokers then the extra cost would be covered?

Hells no. If we're going to start taxing based on lifestyle choices, it's an incredibly dangerous slope. Do we also tax based on generic predisposition or just lifestyle choices. Those who drive ATVs pay more taxes? Drive faster cars? Don't exercise? Drink alcohol? Etc, etc

[ExiledFlamesFan]

COPD is probably the most expensive chronic disease known to man. COPD is caused by smoking. About half of lifetime smokers will get COPD.

SP mentioned all the associated costs with COPD. From what I've read, COPD costs the Canadian healthcare system over a billion dollars a year.

A person can live with COPD with 10 or 15 years. That is 10 or 15 years of ER visitations and subsequent inpatient admissions, years of subsidized inhaled medications, years of government funded oxygen.

At a certain point these people are too disabled to work, therefore are not paying taxes and receiving disability benefits from the government.

COPD is a huge burden on the Canadian healthcare system.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Hells no. If we're going to start taxing based on lifestyle choices, it's an incredibly dangerous slope. Do we also tax based on generic predisposition or just lifestyle choices. Those who drive ATVs pay more taxes? Drive faster cars? Don't exercise? Drink alcohol? Etc, etc

Taxes on tobacco is basically a tax on a lifestyle choice. I have no problem with it.

If you choose to be stupid enough to smoke, pay the taxes.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Azure

Taxes on tobacco is basically a tax on a lifestyle choice. I have no problem with it.

If you choose to be stupid enough to smoke, pay the taxes.

Consumption tax, sure. I thought he was referring to income tax

[Mr.Coffee]

does it not seem like as a society we are moving towards more and more freedoms / legalization of marijuana but then less and less freedoms for tobacco?

Just seems odd since in my mind they're so similar it feels like they should be treated the same way. The way society views weed vs. tobacco are so strange in my mind.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

does it not seem like as a society we are moving towards more and more freedoms / legalization of marijuana but then less and less freedoms for tobacco?

Just seems odd since in my mind they're so similar it feels like they should be treated the same way. The way society views weed vs. tobacco are so strange in my mind.

The point is that you should have the freedom to drink/smoke or pump yourself full of anything you want, but because doing that is often a drain on our social services, you should also be prepared to pay the price.

Hence the saying 'legalize and tax it.'

Also, marijuana hasn't been shown to create as many health problems as tobacco does, so there is a difference.

I would personally legalize most 'non hard drugs.' Legalize and tax.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Azure

The point is that you should have the freedom to drink/smoke or pump yourself full of anything you want, but because doing that is often a drain on our social services, you should also be prepared to pay the price.

Hence the saying 'legalize and tax it.'

Also, marijuana hasn't been shown to create as many health problems as tobacco does, so there is a difference.

I would personally legalize most 'non hard drugs.' Legalize and tax.

Citation needed.

Burning and smoking anything will cause lung damage. I've personally had patients who don't smoke tobacco but smoke 5-6 joints a day and have severe COPD.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

COPD is probably the most expensive chronic disease known to man. COPD is caused by smoking. About half of lifetime smokers will get COPD.

SP mentioned all the associated costs with COPD. From what I've read, COPD costs the Canadian healthcare system over a billion dollars a year.

A person can live with COPD with 10 or 15 years. That is 10 or 15 years of ER visitations and subsequent inpatient admissions, years of subsidized inhaled medications, years of government funded oxygen.

At a certain point these people are too disabled to work, therefore are not paying taxes and receiving disability benefits from the government.

COPD is a huge burden on the Canadian healthcare system.

1) Everyone has to die of something. All my relatives who were non-smokers spent the last 10 years of their life in some kind of medical care.

2) With about $5/pack in taxes, a pack a day smoker pays a lot of extra taxes already. In fact, once you figure in corporate taxes, I'd bet that adds up to close to or even more than the 1 billion you are claiming smokers cost the health care system. That would make smokers the only group in Canada that pays for their own medical treatment....them and alcoholics.

Edit:
Turns out I was way off...Tax revenue from tobacco sales alone is in excess of 7 billion/year:

http://www.smoke-free.ca/pdf_1/totaltax.pdf

This does not include the taxes the government would take from taxes on tobacco companies, employees of companies, vendors, etc...

So basically, smokers are paying for your medical treatment. Not the other way around, and it's not even close.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by blankall

1) Everyone has to die of something. All my relatives who were non-smokers spent the last 10 years of their life in some kind of medical care.

2) With about $5/pack in taxes, a pack a day smoker pays a lot of extra taxes already. In fact, once you figure in corporate taxes, I'd bet that adds up to close to or even more than the 1 billion you are claiming smokers cost the health care system. That would make smokers the only group in Canada that pays for their own medical treatment....them and alcoholics.

Tobacco use represents a substantial cost to the Canadian health care system, and to the Canadian economy. Total direct health care costs linked to tobacco use are over $4.4 billion per year. When indirect cost (e.g. lost wages, productivity, etc.) are included, the total annual economic cost of tobacco to the Canadian economy is more than $17 billion.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hc-ps/consult...onsult-eng.php

Last time I checked 17 billion is greater than 7 billion. But nice try.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Blankall, never again claim that you are doing the Canadian health system a favour by smoking. That is a hilariously ignorant statement.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hc-ps/consult...onsult-eng.php

Last time I checked 17 billion is greater than 7 billion. But nice try.

1) You are only including the revenue from Tobacco sales. You're not including the variety of other taxes included in any industry, most notably income taxes.

2) Your figure is based on "indirect costs". It also says "costs to the economy", which is an entirely different cost than cost to the taxpayer. If you want to start adding in benefits to the economy of tobacco, you're not only adding in the taxes but also where the guy who owns the tobacco store spends his money, and where the CEO of DuMaurier spends his money.

So "last time I checked" you came in here with completely made up stats and were comparing apples to oranges.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Blankall, never again claim that you are doing the Canadian health system a favour by smoking. That is a hilariously ignorant statement.

Actually...I'm going to claim it over and over and over, because it's true and supported by easily findable facts and figures.

The vast majority of people have health care costs associated with their lives and deaths. Smokers are the only ones who are paying such a substantial additional tax on top of the regular taxes they already pay. The figures easily support that smokers not only pay for the extra health care costs associated with their habit, but pay far more.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by blankall

1) You are only including the revenue from Tobacco sales. You're the variety of other taxes included in any industry, most notably income taxes.

2) Your figure is based on "indirect costs". It also says "costs to the economy", which is an entirely different cost than cost to the taxpayer. If you want to start adding in benefits to the economy of tobacco, you're not only adding in the taxes but also where the guy who owns the tobacco store spends his money, and where the CEO of DuMaurier spends his money.

So "last time I checked" you came in here with completely made up stats and were comparing apples to oranges.

I never thought I'd see the day that I'd have to argue that smokers are a drain on the Canadian healthcare system. Common sense ain't that common apparently.

It's your job to prove that the smoking industry generates 10 billion in tax in Canada. That's the gap we have right now. And you are claiming that smokers pay for all associated costs of their illnesses and lost income.

Looks like the Canadian judicial system also thinks that smokers are draining the Canadian healthcare system. Such a drain, in fact, that the government of Ontario was recently awarded 50 billion from tobacco companies.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle12270561/

To add, smokers as a demographic are uneducated and poor. So these smokers are paying less in income tax as a group, while the rest of us are subsidizing their healthcare with higher incomes.

Your argument is essentially "everyone dies". Very foolish.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

I never thought I'd see the day that I'd have to argue that smokers are a drain on the Canadian healthcare system. Common sense ain't that common apparently.

It's your job to prove that the smoking industry generates 10 billion in tax in Canada. That's the gap we have right now. And you are claiming that smokers pay for all associated costs of their illnesses and lost income.

Looks like the Canadian judicial system also thinks that smokers are draining the Canadian healthcare system. Such a drain, in fact, that the government of Ontario was recently awarded 50 billion from tobacco companies.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle12270561/

To add, smokers as a demographic are uneducated and poor. So these smokers are paying less in income tax as a group, while the rest of us are subsidizing their healthcare with higher incomes.

Your argument is essentially "everyone dies". Very foolish.

Are you actually reading any of this?

How is it my job to prove where the $10 billion dollar gap comes from. Your figure is "cost to the economy". It's not a cost to the government / tax payer. Presumably it includes an imprecise calculation of figures like man hours lost.

I've already clearly explained the difference between the two figures we are talking about.

That 50 billion settlement was based on historic costs that did not include current cigarette taxes. 50 years ago when there was basically no taxes on cigarettes and way more people smoked, it was an entirely different scenario. Currently, taxes are huge and far smaller proportion of the population smokes full time.

The figures in this scenario are pretty clear. And smokers are more than paying their share of health care costs.

Uneducated and poor? Where are you getting this from? You've clearly never worked on a work site. A lot of people there work hard, earn decent salaries, pay lots of taxes, and smoke 1-2 packs a day.

Also, your argument makes no sense. The taxes on cigarettes do not come from income. They are user taxes on the individual packs.