[PGT] Flames fall to TB 5-2

[DeluxeMoustache]

Seto and Glencross are very replaceable. That is all

[saXon]

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Real professionals don't let this stuff affect their play and would have been able to overcome such an issue to win the game... blah blah blah blah you're wrong blah blah Sven blah blah

I always get a kick out of this. Many of these guys are obsessive about nitpicking on skate sharpening, sticks - taping, curve etc. , when if they would just put a rabbit's foot in their can they would probably be just as far ahead.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I always get a kick out of this. Many of these guys are obsessive about nitpicking on skate sharpening, sticks - taping, curve etc. , when if they would just put a rabbit's foot in their can they would probably be just as far ahead.

Hockey players are apparently interesting creatures of habit. I hear especially goaltenders have the most interesting rituals.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Mike F

I think that there are times when people will take a strong, vocal stance on an issue that they have to defend at the outset. From that point on, they'll watch games looking for examples that back up the opinion they voiced. It's called confirmation bias, and it's a well documented phenomenon.

They then get in more arguments, entrenching their position, making them even more eager to find support.

In this way, even if they're fans of a team, they can work their way into a position where it's more satisfying to them for a player to fail.

Couple that with an inability to let contrary opinions go by without comment, and a once well meaning fan ends up clogging threads and looking like a troll.

I agree with you thoughts and the theory of confirmation bias. Ashax's and a few others are definitely falling victim to this on the "Sven needs to be in the NHL" side of this debate for sure.

I also don't think anyone has really ever vocally called Sven garbage with enough vigor for a long enough period of time to feel they'd be falling victim to this on the other side of the argument. However, there are certainly enough folks taking the management and the coaches are handling him just fine side of the argument to bring confirmation bias into that element of the argument, but when Sven has contributed as little as he as in recent memory in both the AHL and NHL level, is there really anyway that confirmation bias impacts this? Things would need to be a lot "closer" to the other side of the argument to create a situation where confirmation bias on this front could be a factor, no?

[jg13]

Johnnys playing with the flu he gets a pass and was still better than a lot of the forwards on the team tonight.

Easily Svens best game tonight, particularly in the first period he had a lot of jump.

The Russell giveaway was atrocious and I almost puked seeing that happen, not his best game.

Hiller didn't have much of a chance on most of the goals, i'd start him against Florida.

Brodie is on the verge of becoming a top D man in this league for the next decade, i'd easily have him in the top 10 right now and is still getting better

Setoguchi, I don't know what more this team can do with him he is not producing and they have given him every opportunity in the world time to send him down once players get healthy.

Monahan is an absolute stud and turning into the player I was expecting to see him be 5 years from now.

Jooris work ethic is very good, never takes a shift off I agree with Hartley by keeping him on the top line all game.

[Flames89]

How much is the Russell drop-pass giveaway (and Wideman had one as well, I believe) the fault of the puck carrier versus the trailing D-man?
It is obviously a set play, but it seems like in both cases the trailing guy was somewhat sleeping.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Flames89

How much is the Russell drop-pass giveaway (and Wideman had one as well, I believe) the fault of the puck carrier versus the trailing D-man?
It is obviously a set play, but it seems like in both cases the trailing guy was somewhat sleeping.

IIRC, the trailer was Hudler and Gaudreau respectively.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by Flames89

How much is the Russell drop-pass giveaway (and Wideman had one as well, I believe) the fault of the puck carrier versus the trailing D-man?
It is obviously a set play, but it seems like in both cases the trailing guy was somewhat sleeping.

For the SHG, its all on Russell. Hudler was his intended target, but he had to know Boyle was behind him because he'd just skated past him and he must have felt Boyles stick in and around his skates. These blind passes worry me. For me, it should always be a conventional enter into the zone, none of this over elaborate stuff. Seems an unnecessary risk and more teams will cotton onto our tactic. So I think we should knock it on the head for the next few PPs unless the puck carrier can see all of their guys in front of him and he knows there is no risk of a breakaway steal.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

For the SHG, its all on Russell. Hudler was his intended target, but he had to know Boyle was behind him because he'd just skated past him and he must have felt Boyles stick in and around his skates. These blind passes worry me. For me, it should always be a conventional enter into the zone, none of this over elaborate stuff. Seems an unnecessary risk and more teams will cotton onto our tactic. So I think we should knock it on the head for the next few PPs unless the puck carrier can see all of their guys in front of him and he knows there is no risk of a breakaway steal.

85 percent of NHL teams use the same tactic of a second wave on the PP breakout and entry.

Poor reads and execution were the issues last night.

I.E. If Boyle is cheating on read for backpass...there is a 4vs.3 entry option...probably wide.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Real professionals don't let this stuff affect their play and would have been able to overcome such an issue to win the game... blah blah blah blah you're wrong blah blah Sven blah blah

I'll assume that's sarcasm, but it wasn't meant as an excuse - just a reason for the likes of Russell and Diaz falling down.

I do agree that, if I'm a TB player, or in one of thee rinks with ####ty ice, I am not happy. I don't think T.B . is a team built to take advantage either. It's a good skating team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by timbit

85 percent of NHL teams use the same tactic of a second wave on the PP breakout and entry.

Poor reads and execution were the issues last night.

I.E. If Boyle is cheating on read for backpass...there is a 4vs.3 entry option...probably wide.

I agree, the little back pass is a good thing to get the puck to a guy with speed. It was just done really poorly and in bad situations.

In fact the pass was so bad I don't think it would've connected even without the interception.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I agree with you thoughts and the theory of confirmation bias. Ashax's and a few others are definitely falling victim to this on the "Sven needs to be in the NHL" side of this debate for sure.

I am not and have not been arguing this.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'll assume that's sarcasm, but it wasn't meant as an excuse - just a reason for the likes of Russell and Diaz falling down.

I do agree that, if I'm a TB player, or in one of thee rinks with ####ty ice, I am not happy. I don't think T.B . is a team built to take advantage either. It's a good skating team.

Sorry. It was indeed sarcasm. I forgot to add /sarcasm at the end or a face. My bad

[Finger Cookin]

Man, Russel's looking pretty beat up after hitting the crossbar with his face in that scrum.

[TSXCman]

I thought this was a really strong game for the Flames! Lots of good things seen. The compete and work ethic is awesome! Even when they lose a game, it doesn't look like they are losers.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by TSXCman

I thought this was a really strong game for the Flames! Lots of good things seen. The compete and work ethic is awesome! Even when they lose a game, it doesn't look like they are losers.

Yeah new too. I didn't get much chance to check in to CP, so I was a little surprised at the disappointment. Flames played pretty even IMO, other than the lightening has a little more skill to bury their opportunities

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Sorry to have missed the first period, as I would have liked to have seen Sven and his improved play.
He is still a young player, and young players will struggle. Young players will also lose ice time as the game goes on, in particular if the team is behind. Really nothing surprising to me as to how he has been treated.
From what I saw (missed the first!), he was active, but running around too much. A few shifts I had a hard time understanding what wing he was supposed to be on.
Not burying the guy, but does anyone really think he should stay up after Colbourne, Raymond and Backlund are back? To me it is pretty clear Sven is in the bottom 2 (with Seto).

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I think Setoguchi is playing due to a lack of big bodies in the top 6, and a lack of a strong net-front presence on the PP. For those that wish Baertschi to replace Seto on the PP, I don't think he can. Like some other posters pointed out, his game is more suited to the half-boards, not as a screen for the goalie and trying to make tips/clean up garbage. I bet he instantly gets replaced on that top PP unit the second Colborne is cleared to play again. Aside from Sven simply not earning that PP time, he simply can't be utilized in that manner on the PP.

As for Sven, he had more flashes and more hustle at times, and then he wilts at other times. He does lose quite a number of puck battles - not sure if it is still a strength issue, an adjustment issue, or just a compete issue. I am leaning more towards the latter (though I do think he had a bit more compete in him tonight on average) based on that especially disappointing icing in the first. Just skate a little bit more before dumping it! Plays like that completely frustrate any coach. Sven NEEDS to be better than he was, regardless of what his advanced stats say. He seems to compete and skate much harder in the offensive zone than in the defensive zone. There was definite improvement in his game, and I think there was more effort on his part, but a few glaring mistakes. I was surprised he was one of the forward leaders in ice-time when I checked that stat in the first period - was over the 7 minute mark when most other forwards were at 6 or lower. Hartley was giving him more ice, but I think the mistakes and the consistent inability to win puck-battles eventually minimized his time.

Ok I've had enough, I'm calling you out.

Please don't act like you don't have a bias on Sven Baertschi. I've read your "Sven reports" over the last 3 games and they really are a stretch. You write up 5-7 bashing paragraphs about him on his first 2 games where he had 7 and 10 minutes in those games.

He wasn't at 7 mins in the first period as you report. He had 8 shifts and 5:30 in the first. In the first Monahan was at 7:02. Other players also hovered around 7 mins. You were just trying to make it seem like he got ice in the first, but made mistakes and lost puck battles so thats why he didn't have the same ice time later in the game. Trying to paint a picture that suits your Sven bashing motives. Lame.

As far as your issue with the "disappointing icing" he had in the first, I like how you failed to mention that it was Sven who cut off the pass along the boards, breaking up the shooting gallery that had been going on in our zone for 40 seconds where the Flames were running around in panic mode. He broke up the pass, carried it out of our zone and was met by the TB defender coming at him. He didn't just fire it up the ice for ####s and giggles or because he is lazy. As you say "Just skate a little bit more before dumping it!" Like it was that easy. Watch the play again. I did.

You also failed to mention it was Sven who got the puck out of the zone for the line change off of the icing faceoff in our zone. Big surprise you left that out. You made it seem as though his "disappointing icing" lost us the game or cost us a goal. It actually let us regroup from the relentless attack of TB and got us a line change 9 seconds into that shift.

Also like how you just dismiss the advanced stat line of Sven last night. It doesn't fit your Sven isn't good enough obsession. You constantly saying that he loses puck battles is also not true. He may lose some, but you talk like he has no chance and loses every one of them. The Flames had three takeaways last night. One of them belonged to Sven. How could he possibly get credited with a takeaway if he loses every puck battle or doesn't try hard enough defensively?

If you are just going to continue being passive aggressive when discussing his play and make false statements, trying to paint a picture that simply isn't true for whatever reason, maybe you should stop discussing his play. Just because you keep saying the same crap doesn't make it true.

Baertschi had a much better game than his first two, the work ethic was there and he was engaged even with only 11 mins of icetime. I'm not saying he had some AMAZING game, but give the guy some props for trying to work his way to more icetime and responsibility without bashing him right after you begrudgingly give him a little credit.

[GioforPM]

I think the ice also had to do with the bad drop pass/bump backs. The puck hung up and didn't slide to the recipient properly. BUT they should have known that, having been skating and passing on the ice all game.