Flames goaltending is killing our chances at McDavid/Eichel/Hanifin: Discuss

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Who said anything about a hometown discount?

Matt Stajan signed here, Mason Raymond signed here, Jonas Hiller signed here and all of the same issues apply to the Flames than Buffalo.

Buffalo resigned Moulson and added Gionta, Gorges, and Meszaros. For all we know they made an offer to Hiller but he preferred Calgary.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Buffalo did add Moulson, Mezjaros, and Gionta via UFA. Added Gorges via a trade as well.

They actually have a higher cap hit than the Flames, they are just a bad team, and IMO I don't think you can say they are tanking any more so than the Flames.

The Flames just have a coaching staff, and core group, that are getting the team to work hard and play the right way.

Exactly. Hit the nail on the head. We are fortunate that things have worked out the way they have. I don't think anyone here could have predicted all of this after trading Iginla and Jbo and having Kipper and Sutter walk.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Sabres weren't going anywhere with those players. They needed a new core. And these days you have to draft your core. It was a rational strategy to trade veterans for picks and prospects.

Rebuilding is a perfectly legitimate strategy in a league where teams are built through the draft. The mechanisms in place to deter complete tanking are the cap floor and the draft lottery. We can argue about how effective they are or whether they need to be tweaked. But personally, I would hate it if the NHL tried to coerce every team into operating in Win Now mode every season.

Best example of a decisive rebuild was Washington. They had Bondra, Kolzig, Jagr as a core, were terrible and decided to draft a new one. Now they aren't a perpetual contender but they're definitely a team that has had alot more success than if they tried to continue to cobble together a core and stumble through similar to what the Flames did in the late stages of the Iginla and friends relax at the country-club era.

Anyway, the goal to remind you is to win the cup not achieve meaningless moral victories like having a good culture.

Most cup winners went through a protracted period of being bad before they were good. Seems to be that's what Buffalo is doing now.

Sure it may all be for not, but that doesn't discredit the strategy. Outcomes are subject to considerable uncertainty but you take the highest probability course to emerge into a contender, which is being very bad and then becoming very good.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Best example of a decisive rebuild was Washington. They had Bondra, Kolzig, Jagr as a core, were terrible and decided to draft a new one. Now they aren't a perpetual contender but they're definitely a team that has had alot more success than if they tried to continue to cobble together a core and stumble through similar to what the Flames did in the late stages of the Iginla and friends relax at the country-club era.

Anyway, the goal to remind you is to win the cup not achieve meaningless moral victories like having a good culture.

Most cup winners went through a protracted period of being bad before they were good. Seems to be that's what Buffalo is doing now.

Sure it may all be for not, but that doesn't discredit the strategy. Outcomes are subject to considerable uncertainty but you take the highest probability course to emerge into a contender, which is being very bad and then becoming very good.

To the first bold, professional sports teams are in the entertainment business, not the cup winning business. Obviously there is nothing more entertaining than winning the cup for their fans, however, it is a 30 team league and they have to sell tickets every year. It doesn't change the fact that every team wants to be as competitive and as successful as they can, but don't come in here and 'remind' us of something that isn't even accurate.

To the second bold, all teams experience ebbs and flows with respect to how competitive they are. But your generic statement about most teams being bad before they are good has little to do with what Bufflalo is doing.

Chicago was bad for a long time but not for a lack of trying.

Teams like Boston, Detroit and LA never tried to bottom-feed in order to get a few core players.

What Buffalo is doing is disgraceful and suggesting it is the path to future success is beyond misleading. It may work for them and prove to be a path to success, but it is by no means a mandatory one or the right and usual one.

[Tinordi]

/revisionist history

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Best example of a decisive rebuild was Washington. They had Bondra, Kolzig, Jagr as a core, were terrible and decided to draft a new one. Now they aren't a perpetual contender but they're definitely a team that has had alot more success than if they tried to continue to cobble together a core and stumble through similar to what the Flames did in the late stages of the Iginla and friends relax at the country-club era.

Anyway, the goal to remind you is to win the cup not achieve meaningless moral victories like having a good culture.

Most cup winners went through a protracted period of being bad before they were good. Seems to be that's what Buffalo is doing now.

Sure it may all be for not, but that doesn't discredit the strategy. Outcomes are subject to considerable uncertainty but you take the highest probability course to emerge into a contender, which is being very bad and then becoming very good.

Exactly. So many posters here faught the idea of a rebuild a few years ago. "Rebuild on the fly" was the trendy idea. I'm pretty sure most posters here are more than happy with the current direction. You can build a contender from methods A-Z but why not try and take the path with the highest probability. Trading UFAs, and drafting and developing well. It's like people would have rathered Buffalo hold on to their UFAs just to avoid any suspicion of tanking. Then they walk for nothing like Cammy and your even further behind the eigth ball. Yet somehow people act like these trades were done with the intention of trying to be bad as opposed to speed up the turn around time for the team. Any examples of things Buffalo supposedly did to tank could be argued that the Flames did as well. If things didn't click so well for us and we were struggling I'm sure no one here would consider us as tankers. Gotta be good to be lucky and gotta be lucky to be good.

[Flash Walken]

If this is an 'entertainment business', this down and out sucky flames team is vastly more entertaining than the 8th/9th place go through the motions team that was boring saddledome patrons to sleep.

But of course, winning is far more entertaining than losing, and so, the most entertaining clubs are generally the winningest ones.

Being bad doesn't mean not entertaining though. Look at the oilers. Barrel of laughs.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

To the first bold, professional sports teams are in the entertainment business, not the cup winning business. Obviously there is nothing more entertaining than winning the cup for their fans, however, it is a 30 team league and they have to sell tickets every year. It doesn't change the fact that every team wants to be as competitive and as successful as they can, but don't come in here and 'remind' us of something that isn't even accurate.

To the second bold, all teams experience ebbs and flows with respect to how competitive they are. But your generic statement about most teams being bad before they are good has little to do with what Bufflalo is doing.

Chicago was bad for a long time but not for a lack of trying.

Teams like Boston, Detroit and LA never tried to bottom-feed in order to get a few core players.

What Buffalo is doing is disgraceful and suggesting it is the path to future success is beyond misleading. It may work for them and prove to be a path to success, but it is by no means a mandatory one or the right and usual one.

What Buffallo is doing is disgraceful? What they are doing is what any rebuilding team should do. Trade pending UFAs, add vets (Moulson, Gorges, Meszaros, Gionta), bring in veteran coach (Nolan), give young players opportunity, etc. Basically exactly what Calgary is doing. I know I know but we work so hard and they don't. Management probably told the coaches and players to lose on purpose. That would never get leaked and everyone would agree. Come on man if you wanna claim they are tanking at least show some evidence.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

To the first bold, professional sports teams are in the entertainment business, not the cup winning business. Obviously there is nothing more entertaining than winning the cup for their fans, however, it is a 30 team league and they have to sell tickets every year. It doesn't change the fact that every team wants to be as competitive and as successful as they can, but don't come in here and 'remind' us of something that isn't even accurate.

To the second bold, all teams experience ebbs and flows with respect to how competitive they are. But your generic statement about most teams being bad before they are good has little to do with what Bufflalo is doing.

Chicago was bad for a long time but not for a lack of trying.

Teams like Boston, Detroit and LA never tried to bottom-feed in order to get a few core players.

What Buffalo is doing is disgraceful and suggesting it is the path to future success is beyond misleading. It may work for them and prove to be a path to success, but it is by no means a mandatory one or the right and usual one.

Do you think the strategy the Sabres are employing will result in them building a contender?

• If yes, then it's smart of them to do.
  
• If no, then why do you care?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

To the first bold, professional sports teams are in the entertainment business, not the cup winning business. Obviously there is nothing more entertaining than winning the cup for their fans, however, it is a 30 team league and they have to sell tickets every year. It doesn't change the fact that every team wants to be as competitive and as successful as they can, but don't come in here and 'remind' us of something that isn't even accurate.

Wait, I thought it was a entertainment business and not to be competitive?

Are the Flames a disgrace too because we aren't trading our 1st round pick for some entertaining players too?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

/revisionist history

Revisionist history is the suggestion Pittsburg "decided" to rebuild. Not that that decision wasn't forced upon them.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Teams like Boston, Detroit and LA never tried to bottom-feed in order to get a few core players.

Los Angeles did.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Los Angeles did.

When did this happen, the year they had to go through 7 goalies because of injury? Hardly tanking that year, that team could just do nothing right.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

When did this happen, the year they had to go through 7 goalies because of injury? Hardly tanking that year, that team could just do nothing right.

It started in 06-07 when they signed Cloutier as their starting goaltender and made conscious efforts over the next few seasons to trade off aging stars and play young guys.

Lombardi's first move was to trade their top forward in Demitra who was better then a ppg in 05/06 for a 1st rounder and O'Sullivan.

Then he traded two NHLers for prospect Jack Johnson.

They tanked alright. They just did it pretty quickly as Lombardi is a sharp one.

[Komskies]

Originally Posted by gunnner

How bad does Buffalo look, good grief. It will be tough to catch them.

Buffalo are bad right now, but Carolina is somehow even worse. They're leading the way on the McEichel standings:

http://www.mceichel.com/

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you think the strategy the Sabres are employing will result in them building a contender?

• If yes, then it's smart of them to do.
  
• If no, then why do you care?

I care because their uselessness will cause the league to alter the lottery rules and then a team like St.Louis will finish 9th in the West and end up with the first pick and a rebuilding team will get screwed.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

/revisionist history

I assume you are referring to me - what in my post was revisionist?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Exactly. So many posters here faught the idea of a rebuild a few years ago. "Rebuild on the fly" was the trendy idea. I'm pretty sure most posters here are more than happy with the current direction. You can build a contender from methods A-Z but why not try and take the path with the highest probability. Trading UFAs, and drafting and developing well. It's like people would have rathered Buffalo hold on to their UFAs just to avoid any suspicion of tanking. Then they walk for nothing like Cammy and your even further behind the eigth ball. Yet somehow people act like these trades were done with the intention of trying to be bad as opposed to speed up the turn around time for the team. Any examples of things Buffalo supposedly did to tank could be argued that the Flames did as well. If things didn't click so well for us and we were struggling I'm sure no one here would consider us as tankers. Gotta be good to be lucky and gotta be lucky to be good.

Yes, that's the point (that you have been arguing against). The direction the Flames are taking is great - rebuilding without being a 60 point embarrassment to the league.

What the Flames are doing is a far cry from what the Sabres are doing. You are all over the map with your comments.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you think the strategy the Sabres are employing will result in them building a contender?

• If yes, then it's smart of them to do.
• If no, then why do you care?

The question should be:

Is it the best way for them to build a contender?

We shall see.

Why do I care? Why do any of us care? Why are we having this conversation?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Wait, I thought it was a entertainment business and not to be competitive?

Are the Flames a disgrace too because we aren't trading our 1st round pick for some entertaining players too?

I don't think you read my post.