Flames goaltending is killing our chances at McDavid/Eichel/Hanifin: Discuss

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

I think there's a huge difference in icing 5+ sub-AHL quality players like Buffalo/Carolina are doing right now, trying to lose on purpose

that's tanking

playing young players and trying to develop them, even if it leads to a top pick, isn't tanking.

Who are these 5+ sub ahl'ers? Who do you suggest they fill these spots with instead?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Exactly. If those were the years the Oilers drafted Hall and RNH we would have Brett Connolly and Adam Larsson.

That's if they took the same players that were drafted in those spots. They could have taken Jeff Skinner and Sean Couturier with those same picks (I doubt they would have passed on Larson though).

The Flames did make the no brainier pick in both drafts and we're lucky enough to wind up with a pick to get a player in the second tier in 2013 and the top tier in 2014.

On another note I am so happy the Flames landed the 2 Canadians over the Euros. I prefer Monahan/Bennett to Lindholm/Drasaitl by far but I am biased

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Hackey

You make it sound like the Sabres should have just went out and got a Giordano like you can pick guys like that off waivers. We're fortunate to have him. Most teams aren't giving a guy like that away. The assets it would take to aquire a player like that doesn't really make sense for them to give up. No UFA of that calibre is likely signing there. Not sure what they really can do.

They could have kept some players?

They've traded away Paul Gaustad, Derek Roy, Jordan Leopold, Robyn Regehr, Jason Pominville, Andrej Sekera, Thomas Vanek, Ryan Miller, Steve Ott, Jaroslav Halak, Cody McCormick in the past 2 plus years.

From those trades - they currently have Matt Moulson (who they actually traded away and then re-signed), Michal Neuvirth, Chris Stewart and Jamie McBain and a bucket load of draft picks.

Its not impossible to sign players. The Flames are terrible and have managed to sign players who contribute. I'm confident if you pay these guys some of them would stay.

[Poe969]

it is pretty evident that the sabres are tanking on purpose. It would be great if they could somehow not get a top 5 pick.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

They could have kept some players?

They've traded away Paul Gaustad, Derek Roy, Jordan Leopold, Robyn Regehr, Jason Pominville, Andrej Sekera, Thomas Vanek, Ryan Miller, Steve Ott, Jaroslav Halak, Cody McCormick in the past 2 plus years.

From those trades - they currently have Matt Moulson (who they actually traded away and then re-signed), Michal Neuvirth, Chris Stewart and Jamie McBain and a bucket load of draft picks.

Its not impossible to sign players. The Flames are terrible and have managed to sign players who contribute. I'm confident if you pay these guys some of them would stay.

Anyone significant on that list was UFA.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

That's if they took the same players that were drafted in those spots. They could have taken Jeff Skinner and Sean Couturier with those same picks (I doubt they would have passed on Larson though).

The Flames did make the no brainier pick in both drafts and we're lucky enough to wind up with a pick to get a player in the second tier in 2013 and the top tier in 2014.

On another note I am so happy the Flames landed the 2 Canadians over the Euros. I prefer Monahan/Bennett to Lindholm/Drasaitl by far but I am biased

Agreed. Would waaaay rather have Monahan and Bennett over those two. Both just seem to have a ton of heart which is so key come playoff time.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Anyone significant on that list was UFA.

That they could have signed for reasonable rates. A guy being a UFA doesn't mean he's leaving town.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

That they could have signed for reasonable rates. A guy being a UFA doesn't mean he's leaving town.

Ya cause guys are just lining up to give hometown discounts to play on one of the worst teams in the league in one of the worst cities in the league. Winning, money and city are probably the biggest attractions for a UFA. If you have the ability to have your choice at those options why would you stay somewhere with none of them?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Ya cause guys are just lining up to give hometown discounts to play on one of the worst teams in the league in one of the worst cities in the league.

Well if a guy believes in the direction the organization is going and likes the sounds of the role the team envisions them playing then it plays into their decision regardless of how bad they are now and how crappy the city is

[Hackey]

Well based on that your assuming players prefer the direction Buffalo is going in over the other 29 teams in the league they could possibly choose from. I'm going to assume that there are better options out there for most players, especially UFAs that are in demand.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Ya cause guys are just lining up to give hometown discounts to play on one of the worst teams in the league in one of the worst cities in the league. Winning, money and city are probably the biggest attractions for a UFA. If you have the ability to have your choice at those options why would you stay somewhere with none of them?

Who said anything about a hometown discount?

Matt Stajan signed here, Mason Raymond signed here, Jonas Hiller signed here and all of the same issues apply to the Flames than Buffalo.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Ya cause guys are just lining up to give hometown discounts to play on one of the worst teams in the league in one of the worst cities in the league. Winning, money and city are probably the biggest attractions for a UFA. If you have the ability to have your choice at those options why would you stay somewhere with none of them?

You're looking at it backwards.

Players don't want to play there because they have traded away all their players.

Had they kept some of them, they wouldn't be in the situation where they can't sign anyone.

They have made their own bed. But it didn't have to be that way.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

They could have kept some players?

They've traded away Paul Gaustad, Derek Roy, Jordan Leopold, Robyn Regehr, Jason Pominville, Andrej Sekera, Thomas Vanek, Ryan Miller, Steve Ott, Jaroslav Halak, Cody McCormick in the past 2 plus years.

From those trades - they currently have Matt Moulson (who they actually traded away and then re-signed), Michal Neuvirth, Chris Stewart and Jamie McBain and a bucket load of draft picks.

Its not impossible to sign players. The Flames are terrible and have managed to sign players who contribute. I'm confident if you pay these guys some of them would stay.

The Sabres weren't going anywhere with those players. They needed a new core. And these days you have to draft your core. It was a rational strategy to trade veterans for picks and prospects.

Rebuilding is a perfectly legitimate strategy in a league where teams are built through the draft. The mechanisms in place to deter complete tanking are the cap floor and the draft lottery. We can argue about how effective they are or whether they need to be tweaked. But personally, I would hate it if the NHL tried to coerce every team into operating in Win Now mode every season.

[SuperMatt18]

Buffalo did add Moulson, Mezjaros, and Gionta via UFA. Added Gorges via a trade as well.

They actually have a higher cap hit than the Flames, they are just a bad team, and IMO I don't think you can say they are tanking any more so than the Flames.

The Flames just have a coaching staff, and core group, that are getting the team to work hard and play the right way.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Sabres weren't going anywhere with those players. They needed a new core. And these days you have to draft your core. It was a rational strategy to trade veterans for picks and prospects.

Rebuilding is a perfectly legitimate strategy in a league where teams are built through the draft. The mechanisms in place to deter complete tanking are the cap floor and the draft lottery. We can argue about how effective they are or whether they need to be tweaked. But personally, I would hate it if the NHL tried to coerce every team into operating in Win Now mode every season.

It's not a black and white line. It's not either "win now mode" or "full scorched earth rebuild mode including mass amounts of suck." There are teams in between, and that's ok. To do something like not allowing a team to draft in the top 3 or 5 twice in a row would be an incentive against tanking for a top player like we are (possibly) seeing for McDavid, but that doesn't make it a coersion towards win-now. It's just taking the focus off the top 5 picks as a necessity and some type of saviour players that all need to play at 18 and be studs and will instantly turn the team around. It's not always the case. In fact, it's a rarity (hint, rarity that the top pick instantly becomes a top player and key contributor towards a championship, not rare that they eventually become good players).

The Flames went scorched Earth, but anyone who watches the team can't say they aren't trying their darndest to win each game, including management, coaches and players. I don't know that the same can be said for Buffalo and Edmonton, considering some quotes from management over the past year or so. Especially from Edmonton.

[GioforPM]

" In fact, it's a rarity (hint, rarity that the top pick instantly becomes a top player and key contributor towards a championship, not rare that they eventually become good players"

That's a bit skewed because 3 of the last few were Oilers and they are no good. But most over the last few years would be considered elite players.

Championships are hard, and not all drafts are equal, but the last few times where there was a real stud along the lines of a McDavid, you can argue a championship came later: Lafleur, Potvin, Gretzky, Mario, Lecav., Sid, Kane. You could also argue that the Nords/Avs turned Lindros into a championship as well. You could argue that Boston would have had a cup earlier with Thornton.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

" In fact, it's a rarity (hint, rarity that the top pick instantly becomes a top player and key contributor towards a championship, not rare that they eventually become good players"

That's a bit skewed because 3 of the last few were Oilers and they are no good. But most over the last few years would be considered elite players.

Championships are hard, and not all drafts are equal, but the last few times where there was a real stud along the lines of a McDavid, you can argue a championship came later: Lafleur, Potvin, Gretzky, Mario, Lecav., Sid, Kane. You could also argue that the Nords/Avs turned Lindros into a championship as well. You could argue that Boston would have had a cup earlier with Thornton.

You missed the key word of instantly. Even Crosby, who came in and scored over 100pts as an 18 year old, couldn't get his team out of suck in the first year. Getting to the finals 3 years into his career is certainly rapid upward trend, but he also had a lot of help (and is the best player our generation has seen). You named five players, in all the history of number 1 overalls, I would call that a rarity. And I would bet 100% would say that they never would have won without every other player on their team, not because it's a cliche hockey answer, but because it's true. If you've ever been part of a champiosnhip team, at any level, you know that every single player is an important piece playing a variety of roles.

Zero of those guys dragged a team to the finals, or even to the playoffs, on their own and were surrounded by talent of different types pulled from all different rounds of the draft, and with different transactions. Guys like Stephane Yelle, Sammy Paulson (see: Lance Bouma) are the types of players that win championships. Guys that dive face-first in front of pucks. Guys that don't give up no matter what. And those guys get very little credit by people who only see points. You don't see that in all high-octane offensive junior-aged players. When you find a combination of the two, thats awesome, but it's still only a piece. You don't win it all with skill players throughout the lineup.

Your last point about Boston is 100% conjecture and, considering the teams Jumbo Joe has been gifted with and failed with, pure BS. Boston won because they are a team completely made up of top-notch two-way forwards (particularly their top 2 centers), strong defensemen with a little offesnive flair, and beastly goaltending. How many #1's until you get all those pieces?

[CliffFletcher]

But if 'tanking' doesn't guarantee anything, why are the people who say it doesn't guarantee anything so mad about teams that tank? If their strategy is flawed, we should be laughing at them, not criticizing them and looking for ways to punish them.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But if 'tanking' doesn't guarantee anything, why are the people who say it doesn't guarantee anything so mad about teams that tank? If their strategy is flawed, we should be laughing at them, not criticizing them and looking for ways to punish them.

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's:
A) It doesn't guarantee anything froma team success standpoint, but there's no argument that it more often than not nets a very good hockey player. The idea of helping out the worse teams by giving them the top picks is nice in theory, but if tanking is the practice is breeds, it needs to be changed in some way. Purposefully throwing away a season, or multiple seasons, should be punished, nto rewarded.

B) There are people on here that think we should be following this format. That get mad or dissapointed when we win, and cheer for draft picks or McDavid (or whoever is next). Let's not pretend like McDavid is the first one everyone has been all giddy about (Fall for Hall, Lose for Nuge, Fail for Nail, Not winning for Mackinnon have all been dolled out over the last few drafts). I think what Edmonton is doing is hilarious, but if that was my team I would be sick to my stomach with how they're running things.

C) I love this game and to it see it tarnished with diving (both embellishment on the ice and from managment) is gut-wrenching and inexcusable. Improvement should always be the goal. That doesn't mean it's "win now mode".

[PeteMoss]

Everyone who has to pay full price for tickets for a Buffalo game should be annoyed. Home fans and visiting fans are paying NHL ticket prices to watch a team that isn't trying to compete.

I think as soon as start seeing teams completely tank out and not be able to compete you've got issues. Rebuilding is one thing... teams go through cycles. Being shutout in 4 of your first ten games is a different beast.