Fire & Ice Girls: Sexist Anachronism?

[Stanathan]

Originally Posted by photon

I didn't say you were saying I am lying, I said that your imaginations were not true, then asked if you are saying I'm lying (meaning that saying your imaginations are untrue was a lie). I wasn't talking about any prior posts.



NOW you've said or implied I'm lying.



No, but saying I'm lying is probably a great way to stop being able to enjoy the CP community.



I do have to care about things you say, they may impact the forum.

I may not have to care about what you think, but I do care when imaginary (and frankly insulting) motives and actions are attributed to me and the moderation team. Why would we want to have a poster that insults us?



Uh you just said you don't believe much of my mod "jibber jabber".



If being within the realm of possibility is all that's required to formulate your beliefs, I've got a bridge to sell to you.

I don't have to commit myself to a belief that everything you say is either truth or a lie, I am open to it being either.

Sounds like jibber jabber when you have no evidence to support your statements.

[btimbit]

I know 3 former stamps cheerleaders. They all did it because they loved dance and enjoyed it.

I can't see how this would be any different. You get to skate in an NHL arena and make a few bucks? That sounds fun to me.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

I'm not sure if CP members choose to ignore it or not, but the amount of advertising on CP is astounding and I imagine it comes with 6 figures of annual revenue and if not, very close to it. I don't think you just want to be telling CP members you don't need them because I'm sure these paying advertisers are expecting a certain amount of hits etc.

This forum may once have been a place where the owner and the mods made decisions based on honest ethics and principles and the desire to provide a great place for sports fans to come together, but with this amount of money involved, things like the YLYL thread going away are likely happening to try and reach new demographics to increase revenue.

I can't say any of this is certain or true, but when significant amounts money are involved, I have a hard time believing that the decisions are genuinely made for the benefit of society and not for the benefit of the owners' pockets.

Obviously if I had a huge issue with it, I wouldn't be a member here and I am completely on board with the forum making money any way it can. I just don't buy all the cuddly crap and and I get a good chuckle at it because I feel money is corrupting the genuine nature of the recent decisions.

Do you know the exact amunt of revenue that D'Arcy recieves?

None of us do and to suggest it's to benefit his pocket is quite unfair. I for one appreciate what D'Arcy has done and the fact he has provided us a forum to discuss hockey and off topic matters.

Frankly, it's easy to sit back a criticise when it's someone else who has the done hard work keeping this place running. There's nothing stopping you and others from creating your own forum to discuss what you like.

[Sr. Mints]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

I don't have to commit myself to a belief that everything you say is either truth or a lie, I am open to it being either.

Sounds like jibber jabber when you have no evidence to support your statements.

It's 'Jibba Jabba.'

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

I don't have to commit myself to a belief that everything you say is either truth or a lie, I am open to it being either.

Sounds like jibber jabber when you have no evidence to support your statements.

The moderators owe you dick all. If you don't like it, just leave.

[Calgary14]

I went for lunch recently at a restaurant downtown and based on the women working there I am surprised no one says anything about them. They were all 25 or under, attractive and wearing short skirts. I'm not sure how thats any different than the women on the ice

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by GGG

I would say that there is something fundamentally wrong with societies use of attractive people to sell products. That why I think the fight isn't with the fire and ice girls its the entire advertising industry and isn't a gender based one

Its really a human instinct problem and how we judge some people to be worth more than others based on appearance. A genetic trait really but one that we can work to over come.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using attractive people to sell products. But bearing in mind that attractive doesn't mean stick thin with large breasts and blonde hair; it's different to everyone. What exactly are the Fire and Ice girls selling? the shovels they use? Actually, I believe that they are sponsored (including their costumes) but for the life of me, I can't remember by whom.

That also doesn't mean we think they're worth more. In fact, I would say as a society and an audience, we are devaluing them. The F&I girls make a pittance. Do you suppose they are worth more or less than the people in the lower bowl? Models can certainly make a lot of money but does anyone care what they say?

This is what's sexist about it. We let the men talk about the products that are on sale in FanAttic while the ladies run up the steps and throw things and keep quiet. The women are there to be seen and not heard.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

I don't have to commit myself to a belief that everything you say is either truth or a lie, I am open to it being either.

Sounds like jibber jabber when you have no evidence to support your statements.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I don't think there's anything wrong with using attractive people to sell products. But bearing in mind that attractive doesn't mean stick thin with large breasts and blonde hair; it's different to everyone. What exactly are the Fire and Ice girls selling? the shovels they use? Actually, I believe that they are sponsored (including their costumes) but for the life of me, I can't remember by whom.

That also doesn't mean we think they're worth more. In fact, I would say as a society and an audience, we are devaluing them. The F&I girls make a pittance. Do you suppose they are worth more or less than the people in the lower bowl? Models can certainly make a lot of money but does anyone care what they say?

This is what's sexist about it. We let the men talk about the products that are on sale in FanAttic while the ladies run up the steps and throw things and keep quiet. The women are there to be seen and not heard.

I see and hear Krystin Hallet a lot when I go to the games.

And I think Big Country sponsors the Ice girls but I have no idea what kind of business they are.

[rubecube]

Even I think this is a bit much.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

The question is: why do they feel the need to dress the F&I girls in something other than the track suits worn by the other people who tend to the ice?

We don't even need the Flames. It's entertainment.

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

There is nothing wrong with assessing how we do things right now and see if they are something that fit with our modern expectations.

There's nothing modern about it. Prudes and slut-shamers are regressive.

Originally Posted by polak

Too me, pubically shaming these girls in a newspaper for wanting to look good and have a fun job for easy money is far worse than the Flames offering them chance to do so.

I'd also be more concerned about the glorified assaults that take place on the ice.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I don't think there's anything wrong with using attractive people to sell products. But bearing in mind that attractive doesn't mean stick thin with large breasts and blonde hair; it's different to everyone. What exactly are the Fire and Ice girls selling? the shovels they use? Actually, I believe that they are sponsored (including their costumes) but for the life of me, I can't remember by whom.



That also doesn't mean we think they're worth more. In fact, I would say as a society and an audience, we are devaluing them. The F&I girls make a pittance. Do you suppose they are worth more or less than the people in the lower bowl? Models can certainly make a lot of money but does anyone care what they say?



This is what's sexist about it. We let the men talk about the products that are on sale in FanAttic while the ladies run up the steps and throw things and keep quiet. The women are there to be seen and not heard.

But to what purpose do we need everyone to be heard?

It's not really a job that requires someone to be heard. What the female or male ice cleaners have to say is not important, nor is what the zamboni driver says. That's not part of their job. And their verbal expression has no bearing on if the job is/isn't sexist.

Nothing about this situation is sexist. At WORST it's exploitive. But that's it. Exploiting sexuality isn't the same as sexism. It's the same issue as the YLYL, it in itself wasn't sexist, but it may have encouraged sexist behaviour.

There are plenty of women who work a variety of jobs at the Saddledome, so the idea that men get the talking jobs and women get the silent jobs so we can just ogle them without having to hear them is way off base. For almost every front of the line job at the Saddledome, I've seen both women and men perform them.

[Antithesis]

I don't think there's anything inherently offensive about the Fire and Ice girls ... I think the premise is kind of silly, but that's another question.

You could probably make an argument that having cheerleaders/Fire and Ice girls/whatever isn't the best business decision in the world. The possibility exists that a huge market of women may be turned off the Flames and the NHL by practices like this (and pink jerseys, etc).

[Stanathan]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

The moderators owe you dick all. If you don't like it, just leave.

I never suggested they owe me anything. I have no idea why you would make this up, maybe you get off on spouting off at people who knows.

Originally Posted by Dion

Do you know the exact amunt of revenue that D'Arcy recieves?

None of us do and to suggest it's to benefit his pocket is quite unfair. I for one appreciate what D'Arcy has done and the fact he has provided us a forum to discuss hockey and off topic matters.

Frankly, it's easy to sit back a criticise when it's someone else who has the done hard work keeping this place running. There's nothing stopping you and others from creating your own forum to discuss what you like.

No I don't know the revenue stream but I can count the amount of adds there are and I'm certain they don't come cheap.

I appreciate the site and what D'Arcy has done, I didn't suggest anywhere that I feel otherwise.

I'm not criticizing, if you think that making money is something worth criticizing, that's on you, no where am I being critical. A person's motivations for doing something are their own, I'm not judging, just pointing out something.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Pretty sure this site barely breaks even.. Bingo, when are we getting an invite to your yacht christening?

We should go swimming is his money pool

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

I never suggested they owe me anything. I have idea why you would make this up, maybe you get off on spouting off at people who knows.

You keep making demands on the moderators to provide evidence about revenue from advertising. They owe you nothing. They owe me nothing either. They have provided us a free forum to talk about the Flames and other topics and that is enough.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

I never suggested they owe me anything. I have idea why you would make this up, maybe you get off on spouting off at people who knows.

What good can come out of dissing the owner of this site because you think he's lining his own pockets?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

I don't have to commit myself to a belief that everything you say is either truth or a lie, I am open to it being either.

You don't have to commit, but you already did commit. You stated what you believe did and did not happen, you already stated that you don't believe what I've said.

Originally Posted by Stanathan

Sounds like jibber jabber when you have no evidence to support your statements.

You want evidence to support saying something didn't happen...? To prove something didn't happen you have to exclude it completely... 24/7 recordings of all the moderators and Bingo for the past year should be adequate then?

Funnily enough I have the same level of evidence you seemed to indicate was adequate for your imaginary narrative; it's within the realm of possibility that the decisions were made without influence from Bingo to increase his six figure income further.

[Locke]

Bingo's finances and the financial stability of the site are wildly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

If you're so interested in it, why not start a thread in the Help/Suggestions subforum. I'm sure that if you were to foot the bill Bingo would happily open the site's books to one of PWC, Deloitte, KPMG or Ernst & Young.

Their audit fees are guaranteed to be cheap like borscht!

[#-3]

Is it sexist, Yes.

Is it a problem, No.

Not all sexism, agism..... is a problem.
Holding someone back from something they are capable of can be a problem.

But selecting specifically men or women for jobs that they would be better suited for is not. And women are just better suited to provide a good quality of entertainment while shoveling snow in yoga pants.