Sven

[polak]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I'm all for taking the approach in creating good 2-way responsible players. However, not all players are the same nor should they be developed the same. If the progress you speak of is that he's now better defensively and a 200ft player, but at the cost of his offensive creativity and confidence, then the flames development has essentially failed. There are some players i think you just have to let make mistakes to make their way into the league. Getting some points while being a minus player the first few years may have been a better approach and then eventually coaching a more responsible game may have been a better approach.

This.

This x 10.

I honestly think we might have ruined Sven by trying to make him into a two-way player. We made him focus too much on defense and his offense seemed to take a hit from it. Even in the preseason it looked like he was trying too hard to be a defensive forward, throwing his body around and stuff. I personally don't think that is his game. Why does he need to be forced to play that way? Players like that are a dime a dozen.

I would have let him develop his offense and then teach the defense once he was scoring at a level that would keep him in the NHL.

Originally Posted by Biyaaaah

I'd rather Sven takes this route and learns to play the game properly than come in score a bunch of goals and be -30 like a Yakupov or ovechkin. Let's produce quality players that can help a team win a cup rather than flashy scorers that will drag down a team with their poor defensive play.

I'd take Yakupov over Sven 10 times out of 10 at this point. You can't force players to completely change their game.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by polak

This.

This x 10.

I honestly think we might have ruined Sven by trying to make him into a two-way player. We made him focus too much on defense and his offense seemed to take a hit from it. Even in the preseason it looked like he was trying too hard to be a defensive forward, throwing his body around and stuff. I personally don't think that is his game. Why does he need to be forced to play that way? Players like that are a dime a dozen.

I would have let him develop his offense and then teach the defense once he was scoring at a level that would keep him in the NHL.



I'd take Yakupov over Sven 10 times out of 10 at this point. You can't force players to completely change their game.

This is one of the plethora of reasons that Edmonton is No Good.

"Who needs to play defence? We're rebuilding the Gretzky era Oilers here!" is NOT how you win in the modern NHL.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Biyaaaah

Lots of kids don't develop till 23-25 yrs of age. Development process takes time. There's absolutely no reason why Sven can't still be a top 6. Most of the core of our team took a long time to develop. Gio, Brodie, backs, Byron... Don't think any of these guys looked like nhlers at 22. Guys like Monahan are few and far between.

I'd rather Sven takes this route and learns to play the game properly than come in score a bunch of goals and be -30 like a Yakupov or ovechkin. Let's produce quality players that can help a team win a cup rather than flashy scorers that will drag down a team with their poor defensive play.

True, but elite forwards tend to make the NHL full time by the time they are 22 (defensemen are usually a little later). I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is a complete bust, but if his comparables end up being players like Byron, then it certainly would be a drop off from where he was drafted.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

True, but elite forwards tend to make the NHL full time by the time they are 22 (defensemen are usually a little later). I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is a complete bust, but if his comparables end up being players like Byron, then it certainly would be a drop off from where he was drafted.

Yeah there aren't many elite players that took until their mid-20's to get to the NHL. That said I think most of us are past the point of considering Sven an elite talent and are just hoping now for a top six winger. It still is a possibility although it's not a great sign that he's been surpassed on the depth chart by players drafted after the first round.

[polak]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

This is one of the plethora of reasons that Edmonton is No Good.

"Who needs to play defence? We're rebuilding the Gretzky era Oilers here!" is NOT how you win in the modern NHL.

Yeah, if you have a full team of players like that then you're screwed. When you draft a player who scores at an Elite level in junior, you should maybe let him focus on his game before you try completely changing how he plays.

Not every player is going to be an awesome defensive forward. He wasn't a liability before Burke came in.

Now instead of a rookie scoring at a decent .5 clip who was developing a great chemistry with Monahan, we have a player who can't score or play well enough defensively to make the team and seems to be trending the wrong way, with rumored animosity developing between him and his team.

Great work.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by polak

Yeah, if you have a full team of players like that then you're screwed. When you draft a player who scores at an Elite level in junior, you should maybe let him focus on his game before you try completely changing how he plays.

Not every player is going to be an awesome defensive forward. He wasn't a liability before Burke came in.

Now instead of a rookie scoring at a decent .5 clip who was developing a great chemistry with Monahan, we have a player who can't score or play well enough defensively to make the team and seems to be trending the wrong way, with rumored animosity developing between him and his team.

Great work.

So in your opinion none of this is on Sven? It's all Burke's fault he can't score in the AHL?

[kirant]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

This is one of the plethora of reasons that Edmonton is No Good.

"Who needs to play defence? We're rebuilding the Gretzky era Oilers here!" is NOT how you win in the modern NHL.

While I always love 2-way players (I almost always suggest the Flames draft the quiet two-way players like Monahan), it's important to realize that not every player will develop in such a manner. If a player shows no ability to learn defence whatsoever (which I'm not saying Baertschi isn't, this is one extreme) but shows NHL potential offensively, then it might be time to develop the player as best you can as an offensive specialist, accept they can't play in their own end, and hope they make it as part of the top 6 in the "top 6 or bust" prospect category. If that doesn't gel with the team's desires then he can be moved for pieces which better fit the mentality of the franchise. Either way, you'd prefer to maximize the developed value of the player.

Again, that isn't to say that this is what's happening to Baertschi. His situation is a bit more complicated. But I would suggest too that not teaching Baertschi defence isn't the end of the world or a really bad problem but instead would be a different direction in his development.

[polak]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

So in your opinion none of this is on Sven? It's all Burke's fault he can't score in the AHL?

I think Burke and Burke specifically put him in a position to fail. I'm not giving up on him, I hope he can turn it around but I definitely disagree with how the team has treated him (including Feaster's hypefest before last season).

[Red Menace]

I agree, Burke and Hartley really mismanaged this kid....strange because they seem to have handled most others so well.
I think we all get attached to certain opinions about players and it become very hard to be objective about them. I think this was the case for Burke and Hartley who treated him more harshly than his play deserved and also for fans who think he can do no wrong.

IMO he should have stayed in the NHL last year, his play warranted it above many other who stayed.
I think you can do harm to certain kind of players by keeping them in the AHL, and Sven seems to be one of those guys.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by polak

I think Burke and Burke specifically put him in a position to fail. I'm not giving up on him, I hope he can turn it around but I definitely disagree with how the team has treated him (including Feaster's hypefest before last season).

Burke forced Hartley not to keep Sven on the Flames? Burke's hard words made Sven struggle in the AHL? Give your head a shake. Being put in a position to fail is sitting him in the press box every night or playing him on the 4th line on the big club which are two things the Flames haven't done to him.

They have given him every chance to make the big club being one of the last players to be cut in preseason. He just hasn't made the most of his opportunities to date. All Baertschi had to do in the past few years was outperform fellow ranks in the AHL and he would be the first guy called up but he hasn't and still isn't. It's all on him. All of it. It's time some fans realized this kid isn't as good a pro as he was a junior. He's not the first in fact he's following the road many top junior players take in struggling to adapt to the professional game. Most don't make it unfortunately.

[Geeoff]

A much bigger concern than either his scoring and his defensive game is his mental fragility.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I agree, Burke and Hartley really mismanaged this kid....strange because they seem to have handled most others so well...

Which is why I tend to think that there is more to this than meets the eye, and Burke and Hartley probably do have a better idea about how to handle Baertschi and the rest of the Flames' prospects.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I guess you'll have to watch the games and tell me then.

you have been the biggest Sven supporter/defender since day one...which is fine nothing wrong with being a fan but you have an obvious bias toward the player so I take what you say with a grain of salt.

[CliffFletcher]

Where's this evidence that Baertschi has NHL-level offensive skills in the first place? Scoring in junior is scoring in junior. Anyone remember Dustin Boyd? Sometimes it just doesn't translate to the NHL level because a player isn't quite fast enough, or strong enough, or have a good enough shot. Or he doesn't have the mental makeup to put it all together.

And if you want to compare Baertschi to Detroit's slow-developed players, here's Gustav Nyquist's AHL stats for draft year +3 and draft year +4:

GP 56 G 23 A 36 Pts 58
GP 58 G 23 A 37 Pts 60

If we do have another Nyquist on our hands - a legitimate scorer who takes until he is 24 to stick in the NHL - it's time for Baertschi to start producing at the AHL level.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by dino7c

you have been the biggest Sven supporter/defender since day one...which is fine nothing wrong with being a fan but you have an obvious bias toward the player so I take what you say with a grain of salt.

Once again, that's fine. I simply suggest you form your opinions in other methods than stat watching hockeydb.

I said in my original post that there may be others who have watched more games who have a different opinion.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Burke forced Hartley not to keep Sven on the Flames? Burke's hard words made Sven struggle in the AHL? Give your head a shake. Being put in a position to fail is sitting him in the press box every night or playing him on the 4th line on the big club which are two things the Flames haven't done to him.

They have given him every chance to make the big club being one of the last players to be cut in preseason. He just hasn't made the most of his opportunities to date. All Baertschi had to do in the past few years was outperform fellow ranks in the AHL and he would be the first guy called up but he hasn't and still isn't. It's all on him. All of it. It's time some fans realized this kid isn't as good a pro as he was a junior. He's not the first in fact he's following the road many top junior players take in struggling to adapt to the professional game. Most don't make it unfortunately.

A .5 scoring clip is great for a rookie. He was doing perfectly fine until Burke came along, spouted off a bunch of BS in the media. All the sudden the media starts calling him a defensive liability, which was not the case any more so than it was with Monahan or other players and then they sent him to the AHL which ruined his confidence and judging by his playing style in camp this year, has forced him to try and play a game he has not played before and he's obviously not doing very well.

How much more evidence do you need? .5 scoring clip before being sent down. <.2 after being sent to the minors.

Defend Burke all you want but he threw Sven under the bus and Sven hasn't been able to recover since.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by dino7c

you have been the biggest Sven supporter/defender since day one...which is fine nothing wrong with being a fan but you have an obvious bias toward the player so I take what you say with a grain of salt.

I'd rather ask Ashasx about Baertschi than you, since he at least watches the games.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah I would be more concerned I think if the whole team wasn't struggling outside of Ferland and Granlund.

Sven, Reinhart, Knight, Arnold, etc are all struggling in the AHL.

Sven is just the most noticeable right now since he is the highest profile, and the fan base is souring on him.

Personally I thought he looked like an NHLer in pre-season, and that he showed he could play in the NHL. The puck hasn't been going in for him but the whole team has been unable to generate offense.

What he needs to do now is come to terms with the fact that he is likely spending the season in the AHL, and he needs to make the most of his time there. IMO he is too focused on being an NHLer, instead of just trying to be the best player he can be.

Granlund and Ferland will both likely be called up before him but that may be a good thing for him as he can really use a full season in the AHL.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by polak

A .5 scoring clip is great for a rookie. He was doing perfectly fine until Burke came along, spouted off a bunch of BS in the media. All the sudden the media starts calling him a defensive liability, which was not the case any more so than it was with Monahan or other players and then they sent him to the AHL which ruined his confidence and judging by his playing style in camp this year, has forced him to try and play a game he has not played before and he's obviously not doing very well.

How much more evidence do you need? .5 scoring clip before being sent down. <.2 after being sent to the minors.

Defend Burke all you want but he threw Sven under the bus and Sven hasn't been able to recover since.

Burke was right to throw Sven under the bus coming out of training camp in 2013/2014.

Sven had a terrible development camp, and a terrible training camp and was acting like he didn't have to earn a spot on the team.

Sven is just as much to blame as Burke/Hartley because the rift between Sven and the team started when he pouted his way through the development camp that season when he thought that he shouldn't have needed to attend.

[nik-]

I just wish they'd give the kid a legit stretch in the show at this point. They were perfectly content with letting Colborne derp his way up the ladder last year and it seems to have helped him. First Hartley benches him when his line was playing really well, and him as a big part of it, then Burke uses him as a demonstration in the Feaster ousting and now here we are.