Class action lawsuit filed against CHL over wages

[GioforPM]

I agree that unionization and collective bargaining probably won't work. I guess the lawsuit may be valuable if it highlights some of the issues though.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The biggest trouble in this debate is the fact no one, not even the league, knows what all the revenues are.

Some things to consider when looking at this:
-The bantam draft is inarguably illegal. The players have not allowed for it due to collective bargaining like in other leagues because they don't bargain collectively

True, and honestly, I am a little surprised that nobody has tried to challenge this. Especially in the OHL as it is only a very small leap from the sort of behaviour players like Max Domi have exhibited in engineering their way to specific teams they want to play for.

-collective bargaining in this situation would be incredibly messy with many players coming and going, many players not being the age of majority, etc.
-the hockey community is small. There are a lot of people fearful to come forward and join in the process, as they don't want to impact the future of brothers, kids, etc.

These two are especially problematic for both sides. In terms of a CBA, going on strike could have mammoth repurcussions on a player's long-term development and NHL draft status. I have no doubt that Unifor would happily sacrifice any number of kids to beat down the evil owners, but it may prove decidedly difficult to keep that many players unified if it came down to something like that.

Angling for reforms of the scholarships and the like would be a far easier thing to accomplish.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

True, and honestly, I am a little surprised that nobody has tried to challenge this. Especially in the OHL as it is only a very small leap from the sort of behaviour players like Max Domi have exhibited in engineering their way to specific teams they want to play for.



These two are especially problematic for both sides. In terms of a CBA, going on strike could have mammoth repurcussions on a player's long-term development and NHL draft status. I have no doubt that Unifor would happily sacrifice any number of kids to beat down the evil owners, but it may prove decidedly difficult to keep that many players unified if it came down to something like that.

Angling for reforms of the scholarships and the like would be a far easier thing to accomplish.

It's just so difficult from a legal perspective. The current status quo is not legal and far too vulnerable. The alternative is too cumbersome and fraught with possible business ending problems. I'm not sure the business model can be altered much.

To my eye, the only solution is somehow limited collective bargaining, and revenue sharing. That's the exact opposite stance I have in the NHL

[Resolute 14]

Decent revenue sharing would be a huge thing for the OHL especially. Particularly if it gave a town like Owen Sound a chance to hang with the London's of the world. In the WHL too, of course, but the Western League hasn't faced the kind of polarization and disparity of the OHL.

I actually wish that a union dedicated to hockey - such as the PHPA - had come in and organized some of this. I think that might have borne fruit far easier than dealing with a large, faceless and antagonistic union pulling the strings.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Decent revenue sharing would be a huge thing for the OHL especially. Particularly if it gave a town like Owen Sound a chance to hang with the London's of the world. In the WHL too, of course, but the Western League hasn't faced the kind of polarization and disparity of the OHL.

I actually wish that a union dedicated to hockey - such as the PHPA - had come in and organized some of this. I think that might have borne fruit far easier than dealing with a large, faceless and antagonistic union pulling the strings.

That's precisely my beef with unions. They take a life of their own. A union leaders core objective is to keep a union strong. The best way to do that is pit "us" vs "them". That kills business.

[mccalgary71]

I say charge the Kids for Registration, Ice time, their parents have to drive them to road games (or pay for the bus), they need to bring their lunch, supply their own equipment, u
se their own doctor for injuries and rehab, pay for hotel rooms. But the player retains the rights and revenue to their names being used to create revenue. Pay them minimum wage and I bet 99 percent are way way behind where they are currently.


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[PeteMoss]

Couple of things here as I've had an immediate family player play in the CHL:

• Every player (or basically every player) has an agent. The top prospects have the guys you've heard of, but even the lowest of the low will have an agent. The teams will usually tell you to get one to deal with the contract you sign with the CHL team.
• You sign a contract when the team wants to add you to its roster. That contract spells out your scholarship. Its not the same for every player. A first round pick might get something that covers books/tuition/rent at any university/college in North America. A 15th round pick is probably only going to get tuition at a Canadian university.
• There are the general restrictions on how long you have to use it. But in general you have one year afterward to use it. It used to be you were ineligible to use as soon as you played at the AHL level, but I believe they've changed that recently.
• Since these kids are 15/16 years old when they sign the contract, their parents also sign it.

It is unfair to the players, but I do think in general you can make it fair by adding a few small items.
- Only trading players if they allow it. Top picks will have no trade clauses, but Players have no where else to play if they want to keep their pro dreams so they don't have the same leverage as the normal guy who might get transferred to Owen Sound or Swift Current and can just say screw it and get another job. Once you play one game in the CHL you lose your NCAA eligibility so its either go to Swift Current or move down to a lower league (and you also lose your school money by no-showing).
- Set up a standard education package with no timing limitations. If Joe Schmo wants to chase the dream for a few years playing the ECHL or wherever for a few years he should be able to without worrying about losing his school money. If Nathan MacKinnon career ends tomorrow and he doesn't get another contract, the CHL should pay for education. He earned the league a ton of money while making $50/week.

[PeteMoss]

The players are at massive disadvantage since they don't want to rock the boat (and be labelled as trouble maker by NHL teams) and they only are in the league for five years at most anyways. So you are basically counting on the CHL to do the right thing with no one worried about the other side. I'm not a pro-union guy by any stretch, but having some kind of side to represent the players would be nice.

Its easy to say the players are getting enough, but you see situations where a 17 year old is sitting out every game because a team doesn't want to trade him somewhere he can play because they expect him to be a big piece in his 18-20 year old season its tough to see. Particularly when the difference between playing at 17 and being a 6th round NHL pick is massive compared to having to chase a contract after your draft year.

[Resolute 14]

I think expiry on the scholarship packages is fine, but that they need to be relaxed (and standardized). For your Nathan MacKinnon example, if his career ends today, he's still got $3 million+ in the bank from his ELC (the remainder paid for by insurance), which also came as a result of developing in the CHL. I think it is fair to present the CHL as giving the option to develop you toward an NHL career or continuing education but not both.

But for a kid chasing the dream who spends a few years in the minors, including the AHL - or who only gets into a few NHL games - then a much longer period of time to claim the scholarship is certainly fair.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mccalgary71

I say charge the Kids for Registration, Ice time, their parents have to drive them to road games (or pay for the bus), they need to bring their lunch, supply their own equipment, u
se their own doctor for injuries and rehab, pay for hotel rooms. But the player retains the rights and revenue to their names being used to create revenue. Pay them minimum wage and I bet 99 percent are way way behind where they are currently.


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What min wage job for kids (like McDonald's) has them supply their own equipment? And having a team doctor is a benefit for the team. Medical care is free in Canada, and any decent employer supplies additional health benefits.

[GioforPM]

Question: how many kids leave the Whl every year (I ask because they give us the number of scholarships each year). I wonder how many kids, after spending the majority of their time on the ice and not at school, have the grades to get into university, scholarship or not.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Question: how many kids leave the Whl every year (I ask because they give us the number of scholarships each year). I wonder how many kids, after spending the majority of their time on the ice and not at school, have the grades to get into university, scholarship or not.

Can't speak for every team. But the ones I've known work pretty closely with the high schools. The players will all go to same school and if they are missing class or whatever, the team will know.

I know only of the OHL which is much more tightly packed together so the players might miss a 4-5 Fridays during the regular season. With the longer trips on the WHL I'd guess there's a lot more missed school time, but I'd suspect they work with the schools so the kids at least know what they need to do and can work on it on the bus. Most teams have an education liaison with the high school teams on their payroll.

They do a relatively decent job with the high school aged kids. Parents of a 15 year old kid will worried about that so it is emphasized pretty well.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Can't speak for every team. But the ones I've known work pretty closely with the high schools. The players will all go to same school and if they are missing class or whatever, the team will know.

I know only of the OHL which is much more tightly packed together so the players might miss a 4-5 Fridays during the regular season. With the longer trips on the WHL I'd guess there's a lot more missed school time, but I'd suspect they work with the schools so the kids at least know what they need to do and can work on it on the bus. Most teams have an education liaison with the high school teams on their payroll.

They do a relatively decent job with the high school aged kids. Parents of a 15 year old kid will worried about that so it is emphasized pretty well.

That's good -scholarships are good to talk about but if the majority of kids can't use them they become lip service.

I think trades and scholarships are the biggest reform areas.

[mccalgary71]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mccalgary71

I say charge the Kids for Registration, Ice time, their parents have to drive them to road games (or pay for the bus), they need to bring their lunch, supply their own equipment, u
se their own doctor for injuries and rehab, pay for hotel rooms. But the player retains the rights and revenue to their names being used to create revenue. Pay them minimum wage and I bet 99 percent are way way behind where they are currently.


Posted from Calgarypuck.com App for Android

What min wage job for kids (like McDonald's) has them supply their own equipment? And having a team doctor is a benefit for the team. Medical care is free in Canada, and any decent employer supplies additional health benefits.

All McDonalds does is supply a uniform. CHL teams would still do that. As for doctors, a CHL team employs a doctor that specializes in Sports medicine. Quick access with no waiting list and appropriate care. Although, if players would be considered employees Workers Compensaton would probably cover injury rehad but the premiums teams would pay would bankrupt some teams.


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[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by mccalgary71

All McDonalds does is supply a uniform. CHL teams would still do that. As for doctors, a CHL team employs a doctor that specializes in Sports medicine. Quick access with no waiting list and appropriate care. Although, if players would be considered employees Workers Compensaton would probably cover injury rehad but the premiums teams would pay would bankrupt some teams.


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The players get T4s from the team. As far as i know they are paid as employees.

And equipment is part of the uniform. Its not like a McDonalds employee has to bring his own spatula to flip burgers.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mccalgary71

All McDonalds does is supply a uniform. CHL teams would still do that. As for doctors, a CHL team employs a doctor that specializes in Sports medicine. Quick access with no waiting list and appropriate care. Although, if players would be considered employees Workers Compensaton would probably cover injury rehad but the premiums teams would pay would bankrupt some teams.


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What employer doesn't supply equipment then? Not construction. I've done that. And the CHL doctor, as I said, benefits the team as much as the player. Maybe more so.

I think a lot of the responses here ignore the age of these kids, their limited bargaining power (agents or not) and the relative risk and cost benefit. Just saying "they've got it good" whitewashes a lot.

Do you think NCAA football players get a fair shake?

[mccalgary71]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mccalgary71

All McDonalds does is supply a uniform. CHL teams would still do that. As for doctors, a CHL team employs a doctor that specializes in Sports medicine. Quick access with no waiting list and appropriate care. Although, if players would be considered employees Workers Compensaton would probably cover injury rehad but the premiums teams would pay would bankrupt some teams.


Posted from Calgarypuck.com App for Android

What employer doesn't supply equipment then? Not construction. I've done that. And the CHL doctor, as I said, benefits the team as much as the player. Maybe more so.

I think a lot of the responses here ignore the age of these kids, their limited bargaining power (agents or not) and the relative risk and cost benefit. Just saying "they've got it good" whitewashes a lot.

Do you think NCAA football players get a fair shake?

I know many construction workers or carpenters that have to bring all their own tools to work.
As for NCAA players. They get a Full ride 40,000 dollar a year scholarship and the profits go to fund the not so popular sports and scholarships like field hockey and many others, although I do think the individual should maintain the right to profit from their name and likeness.


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[GioforPM]

Construction workers who have tools are usually journeymen and sure aren't paid minimum wage. Guys like me who worked temp grunt stuff had boots but no other equipment.

[GioforPM]

And ncaa guys are chewed up pretty good. A couple bad games and gone. Don't kid yourself. Funding less popular sports is small potatoes compared to ncaa football revenue.

[firecenter]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Are these teams making a lot of money while your brother pays for his own equipment?

The thing is it appears that a lot of Major Junior teams are making a lot of money, some not so much but we, or more importantly the players, don't know how much or what is a reasonable share for the players. It could be that things should remain the same or it could be that the players should get a better deal. To decide just on the teams say so, seems a little one sided and the situation deserves to be looked into.

This is the part that is simply untrue. Look not further than the community owned teams, where just this year 2 of the 4 made money, bucking a trend where all 4 lost money. There are teams that make money, business owners have a right to do that, however we are not talking millions, we are talking thousands. And as mentioned, many, many are losing. It has been quoted by league executives that the distribution is 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 of lose/break even/profit