The Bruins built their team around a once-in-a-century UFA signing.
Besides Doughty (3rd overall), and Kopitar (11th - close enough)? And Carter, who they had to give up a young player drafted 3rd overall to acquire? No top three picks in Doughty and Johnson/Carter, and no Cups for the kings.
I'm not saying every team needs top-5 drafted players to be a contender. But most do.
I agree with you, but you can't counter with the fact that a traded for player was drafted in the top 5. A top 5 player is certainly helpful, but far from necessary
Nine out of the last ten Stanley Cup Champions had at least one top three draft pick in the ten drafts prior to them winning. It is possible to build a Stanley Cup champion without having top 3 picks but only the 07/08 Wings accomplished this. 2014/15 Flames are added for illustrative purposes. I was surprised to see how many first rounders the Wings traded away....I guess when you're that good at scouting, you don't need first rounders.
The Flames already have their top 3 pick.
Just because the Oilers went and took Draisaitl ahead of him, doesn't change the fact that Bennett was ranked #1 by Central Scouting.
EDIT: and when you look closer at that list, half the teams (LA, BOS, ANA, DET) either have one, or none, or one that wasn't impactful. So I think that argument that you can win without a generational talent stands. And as I said, we already have a top 3
Last edited by Enoch Root; 10-20-2014 at 07:25 PM.
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I agree with you, but you can't counter with the fact that a traded for player was drafted in the top 5. A top 5 player is certainly helpful, but far from necessary
Maybe not necessary, but really gives you a leg up as Calgary isn't the only team improving. A lot of teams are rising, the contenders look flat out dominant (when they need to; maybe not regular season games), and young players around the league like Ryan Johansson or John Tavaras or Nathan MacKinnon make the next set of up-and-coming teams look pretty good. We might have Monahan and Gaudreau and Bennett, but so many teams have just as much or more, and I think (or hope) the mindset is that we improve more than they do and become better than they do. A top player like McDavid/Eichel/Hanifin helps that a lot, for sure.
Saying that, I get the idiodic logic of tanking or not being competitive consistantly throughout the season, but I always kind of saw last year as the ideal situation. We battled, competed hard, we were in almost every single game we played, and we still got a top draft pick. And it was probably the most enjoyable season for me personally in half a decade. If we could keep that up wtih a few less wins, but still kept each game close and battled hard and more than anything, showed signs of improvment and growth? That seems more important to me than "wins" ...... and yes I understand you can't orchistrate that exact schenario.
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"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
I would actually argue that. For years, we were having "success" being that 6th-10th place team, and how did that do for our "winning" culture? It didn't do crap. The best development I've seen from this team in the past 15 years was last year, which we posted the worst record in franchise history.
Its not just about winning. Saying that, I have never suggested tank or throw a game or anything. Just saying as a fan, who didn't really have high expectations on this season, yes it does cross my mind that winning games now probably will hurt our chances at a high draft pick. There is no "ZOMG" or anything like that...... those that think so can relax.
Really weak argument. Very few would argue (and I am pretty sure you agued to the contrary) that the Flames had a winning culture while they were finishing 9th.
Success can mean different things. And I think what has gone on here last year, and appears to be continuing this year, is definitely a positive environment - even if it paradoxically resulted in one of the worst seasons, record-wise, in Flames history.
Maybe not necessary, but really gives you a leg up as Calgary isn't the only team improving. A lot of teams are rising, the contenders look flat out dominant (when they need to; maybe not regular season games), and young players around the league like Ryan Johansson or John Tavaras or Nathan MacKinnon make the next set of up-and-coming teams look pretty good. We might have Monahan and Gaudreau and Bennett, but so many teams have just as much or more, and I think (or hope) the mindset is that we improve more than they do and become better than they do. A top player like McDavid/Eichel/Hanifin helps that a lot, for sure.
Saying that, I get the idiodic logic of tanking or not being competitive consistantly throughout the season, but I always kind of saw last year as the ideal situation. We battled, competed hard, we were in almost every single game we played, and we still got a top draft pick. And it was probably the most enjoyable season for me personally in half a decade. If we could keep that up wtih a few less wins, but still kept each game close and battled hard and more than anything, showed signs of improvment and growth? That seems more important to me than "wins" ...... and yes I understand you can't orchistrate that exact schenario.
I hear what you're saying. And I agree that last year we really hit that sweet spot of both being competitive and still getting a top pick.
But to the bold, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the rebuild is done and the FLames can stop improving.
I hear what you're saying. And I agree that last year we really hit that sweet spot of both being competitive and still getting a top pick.
But to the bold, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the rebuild is done and the FLames can stop improving.
Yes, but what I was getting at - and again, I'm not saying anyone should throw the season or tank or anything - while we might get a great player at #4 or #6 or #8, a lot of other teams who are also improving at a slower/same/faster rate then the Flames will also get a really good player in this deep draft. So all I'm saying is, I don't think its unrealistic for anyone to think, consider or debate that maybe when looking at things 5 years from now, we might have been better off with McDavid/Eichel/Hannifin versus someone else getting them. Kind of like a few years ago when everyone was all about not being "Edmonton" as I'm not sure how many people take a lot of pride in that win we had where Steve Begin had that 2 goal game and probably made our draft position worse (though we got the player we wanted in the end, probably).
And again, yes I fully realize you cannot orchistrate hitting that sweet spot.
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"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
Winning is winning. Does not matter how you achieve this. If the Flames make the playoffs with the team we have, that is awesome. That means our team and our players are developing and maturing. If we finish at the bottom, it means were brutal and we have a chance at Mcdavid. No season is ever worth tanking for. The Flames have a great attitude going and that is something you don't want to change. Personally, I love good goaltending, and if thats how we win, then so be it.
good grief, you realize we are not even 10 games into the season yet. i mean even the oilers are still not out of the playoff mix yet......
Mathematically no, the Oilers haven't yet been eliminated, it feels like it though .... I wouldn't wish this amount of suckage on anyone, not even the Flames.
Losing game after game without seeing any improvement for this many years is unbearable .....
__________________ "Half the general managers in the NHL would would trade their rosters for our roster right now ......... I think I know a little about winning ..." - Kevin Lowe; April 2013
IKTHUS
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The flames were 10 pts above the Oilers last year and while they picked 4th they were a step above the bottom 3.
This year they lost offense in Cammy and right now Raymond is easily replacing the goals. I don't think he keeps it up but you never know? The goaltending has been upgraded bigtime which makes up for some of the lost offense.
The defense went from poor to decent. Gio is a legit #1 and this time last year that was debatable. Brodie is a legit #2 and last year that was debatable. What is also debatable now is Kris Russell might be a legit #3 when last year at this time we hoped he was an okay 5/6. Smid was a nice in season add Engellend adds some toughness and no one will miss Butler. Wideman, while it seems like he doesn't fit, is still a serviceable offensive D.
Now some probably felt that Gio-Brodie would regress where it looks like they are taking a step. The flames are keeping goals against down to less than 2.5/GM right now. With this goaltending and D this team could finish 10th in the west. 1-2 injuries they could bottom out pretty fast
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Mathematically no, the Oilers haven't yet been eliminated, it feels like it though .... I wouldn't wish this amount of suckage on anyone, not even the Flames.
Losing game after game without seeing any improvement for this many years is unbearable .....
Do you ever get the feeling this is foreshadowing of what's going to happen on the West coast in a year or two Walter?
Wideman has become the whipping boy on defense, and for good reason, but he's nowhere near as bad as Butler was. Sure, Butler improved slightly towards the end of his tenure in Calgary when he had a lesser role, but earlier on he was atrocious in his own end. I'd honestly attribute some of our improvement on defense and goals against to the overall boost in defensive IQ with the loss of Butler.
Do you ever get the feeling this is foreshadowing of what's going to happen on the West coast in a year or two Walter?
If you are asking if I believe the Canucks will equal Edmonton's level of failure, no. I think they will certainly fall out of playoff contention and their prospect pool IMO isn't enviable. One positive in their favour, I really do like their head coach. That said, I'm an Oiler fan, ..... what do I know ........ ???
__________________ "Half the general managers in the NHL would would trade their rosters for our roster right now ......... I think I know a little about winning ..." - Kevin Lowe; April 2013
The problem of being a fan of a rebuilding team is that you can get caught up with the prospects you don't have a lose sight of the players and prospects you do have.
McDavid would be an awesome add. But the Flames have established a healthy development environment. There are a lot of success stories on our roster. Giordano's rise as captain. Brodie turning into a top D man. Colborne finding his game. Backlund's improvement. The success of players like Hudler, Raymond, and Russell. Our work ethic. The goal tending situation. Etc.
You don't get much of that on 30th place team. Especially if you have to be worse then Buffalo and the Oilers to get there.
There is a lot to be happy about what Calgary is doing. We are doing a rebuild the right way. Wishing we were terrible enough to be in last place is silly.
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Wideman has become the whipping boy on defense, and for good reason, but he's nowhere near as bad as Butler was. Sure, Butler improved slightly towards the end of his tenure in Calgary when he had a lesser role, but earlier on he was atrocious in his own end. I'd honestly attribute some of our improvement on defense and goals against to the overall boost in defensive IQ with the loss of Butler.
Say what you want about Butler, as much of a lunkhead as he was, at least he wasn't SOB *shudder*
This reminds me of when we had Kipprusoff. Other teams fan would say that he was the only reason we made the playoffs. We may have had an Elite scorer in Iginla too, but if can get elite goaltender I think our top d pair and forward depth could get us into a playoff spot. Then good goaltending can take you far into the playoffs. I starve for playoff hockey and will take it whatever way we can.
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That trade with Colorado was just awful. We should've taken picks and any other form of cap dump over Jones and SOB. Tanguay and Sarich are actually decent players. We definitely botched that one...
Catching up on this a little late but my point wasn't to advocate tanking; it was this:
"goaltending is winning us games we have no business being in. my point is that our results are skewed by exceptional goaltending. After being outplayed and outshot in all but a couple of games, we're looking artificially respectable. Can these guys keep up this kind of play, or are we heading for a fall?"
So yeah, winning is good and I agree we won't suck anywhere near enough to compete with some teams for the generational talents anyway, but the team has still been largely outplayed, with mostly Hiller's .940 save pct to thank for the wins. Hence the question: is this start reflective of the team's early potential, or a fluke riding on insane goaltending, nothing more?
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I will eat a pubic hair if Giordano ever plays in the NHL again
