Flames goaltending is killing our chances at McDavid/Eichel/Hanifin: Discuss

[codynw]

Originally Posted by dino7c

80% chance last place team doesn't get McDavid

Yea, but if that doesn't happen they still get Eichel who is a hell of a consolation prize.

[Enoch Root]

To all of the talk about generational talents, you can build a winner with a GT on your roster. And you can build a winner without one. It's a silly arguement.

Being discouraged because the team is experiencing some success is also silly.

However, we're 7 games in to the season - far too early to start talking about success.

One final question though, to those who are so focused on acquiring McEichel...

There are 20 or so teams in the NHL that are not at all in the discussion for the McEichel Sweepstakes - do you think that those teams are foregoing any hope of ever winning the Cup again? Is the future witout hope for those teams, since they won't be blessed with the Savior?

It's one kid. The team should continue to focus on developing the players that are already in the system - and that includes learning how to win.

Whatever draft picks we do get will simply be a reflection of how poorly we're doing with the current guys.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

80% chance last place team doesn't get McDavid

100% chance they get one of McDavid or Eichel (who would almost certainly have gone #1 overall in any of the last 6 or 7 drafts).

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

To all of the talk about generational talents, you can build a winner with a GT on your roster. And you can build a winner without one. It's a silly arguement.

How does the Penguins franchise look if they got Benoit Pouliot or Jack Skille in the 2005 draft instead of Crosby?

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There are 20 or so teams in the NHL that are not at all in the discussion for the McEichel Sweepstakes - do you think that those teams are foregoing any hope of ever winning the Cup again? Is the future witout hope for those teams, since they won't be blessed with the Savior?

Who said anyone is forgoing any hope of winning a Cup? It's not black and white, it's about probabilities. There's a very high probability that your team is going to win more games over the next decade with a McDavid or Eichel than with whoever is drafted 6th or 8th. Just as Sam Bennet is probably going to contribute more to Calgary winning in the future than drafting Brendan Perlini would have.

Higher picks are better. That's all. It's bizarre that there are people on this forum who seem to be arguing otherwise.

[heep223]

Apologies if this has been posted somewhere already. Good article from Haynes today.

Starting now, I implore Calgary Flames fans to reach the realization...Connor McDavid and Jack Eichel, are not going to end up in Calgary.

Here are a few reasons why it's time to stop dreaming, stop getting frustrated with Flames wins and to start enjoying them instead.

1. Giordano and Brodie are too good.
2. Goaltending is too good.
3. Bob Hartley is too good.
4. Flames prospects are too good.
5. A bunch of other teams are not too good.
6. Draft lottery odds are not too good.

http://flamesfrom80feet.blogspot.ca/...ichel-but.html

[DoubleF]

Funny thing...

Huge pieces for us this year... where were they drafted?
- Gaudreau, Brodie and Gio.
Not slagging players at all because I think Bennett is awesome too.

Focusing on a winning culture and development might not be that bad of an idea. Perhaps drafting top talent in the draft helps greatly. But a team doing well might not be bad either. Losing sucks, but is acceptable if we give it our all. Deliberately losing is bad.

Count me in for team "No tanking > higher draft pick".

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by codynw

Yea, but if that doesn't happen they still get Eichel who is a hell of a consolation prize.

sure to go along with their other great players that just finished last

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

100% chance they get one of McDavid or Eichel (who would almost certainly have gone #1 overall in any of the last 6 or 7 drafts).



How does the Penguins franchise look if they got Benoit Pouliot or Jack Skille in the 2005 draft instead of Crosby?



Who said anyone is forgoing any hope of winning a Cup? It's not black and white, it's about probabilities. There's a very high probability that your team is going to win more games over the next decade with a McDavid or Eichel than with whoever is drafted 6th or 8th. Just as Sam Bennet is probably going to contribute more to Calgary winning in the future than drafting Brendan Perlini would have.

Higher picks are better. That's all. It's bizarre that there are people on this forum who seem to be arguing otherwise.

That's not what people are saying, you're just changing the argument for your own sake.

The argument is that it isn't just about drafting. It is about drafting AND development.

And having some success can be beneficial for the prospects that are already in the system. And conversely, failure can be damaging.

The question is: how beneficial is that success (vs failure)? Is it worth more than accepting failure in order to get a higher pick?

IMO, the development side has been overly ignored by fans in the last few years as they focus entirely on each year's draft like it's Christmas morning.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

100% chance they get one of McDavid or Eichel (who would almost certainly have gone #1 overall in any of the last 6 or 7 drafts).



How does the Penguins franchise look if they got Benoit Pouliot or Jack Skille in the 2005 draft instead of Crosby?



Who said anyone is forgoing any hope of winning a Cup? It's not black and white, it's about probabilities. There's a very high probability that your team is going to win more games over the next decade with a McDavid or Eichel than with whoever is drafted 6th or 8th. Just as Sam Bennet is probably going to contribute more to Calgary winning in the future than drafting Brendan Perlini would have.

Higher picks are better. That's all. It's bizarre that there are people on this forum who seem to be arguing otherwise.

Its a valid point that the Pens got to where they have done with Crosby. But what about the Bruins? How many top 10 picks that they drafted were in their roster for their 10-11 Stanley Cup win? By my count, just Seguin. Same with the Kings. Their roster is hardly stacked with their own top 10 draft picks.

Its not black and white, you are right. But its not black and white that just getting a Crosby, McDavid or Eichel is the only way to build a cup winning team. If we pick in the 5-10 range or if we even pick in the 11-15 range, that doesn't matter one jot. It just depends on who we draft and how we coach them.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That's not what people are saying, you're just changing the argument for your own sake.

The argument is that it isn't just about drafting. It is about drafting AND development.

And having some success can be beneficial for the prospects that are already in the system. And conversely, failure can be damaging.

The question is: how beneficial is that success (vs failure)? Is it worth more than accepting failure in order to get a higher pick?

IMO, the development side has been overly ignored by fans in the last few years as they focus entirely on each year's draft like it's Christmas morning.

I would actually argue that. For years, we were having "success" being that 6th-10th place team, and how did that do for our "winning" culture? It didn't do crap. The best development I've seen from this team in the past 15 years was last year, which we posted the worst record in franchise history.

Its not just about winning. Saying that, I have never suggested tank or throw a game or anything. Just saying as a fan, who didn't really have high expectations on this season, yes it does cross my mind that winning games now probably will hurt our chances at a high draft pick. There is no "ZOMG" or anything like that...... those that think so can relax.

[Geeoff]

Trade Hiller for Pavelec. Success?

[Kaine]

This thread is bad. OP should feel bad. I give this the Oilers level of fail.

Never, ever joke about tanking on purpose, that's Oilers territory.

[Caged Great]

The good thing about this draft is that there are 4 guys that are better than Ekblad last year, an about another 4-5 that are in the same ballpark as Bennett (give or take)

This draft is deep, and while it would be great and awesome to get one of the star prospects, we'll get a good one either way.

[Goriders]

I'll bet there are a lot of teams that would kill to have our "problem".

And most of the games where we were outshot I didn't think we were completely outplayed.

Teams were getting alot of shots on us. But not a lot of quality ones.

Irregardless of what we do teh Oilers are goign to pick first again. They are just that bad. They should just call it the oiler pick from now on.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The good thing about this draft is that there are 4 guys that are better than Ekblad last year, an about another 4-5 that are in the same ballpark as Bennett (give or take)

This draft is deep, and while it would be great and awesome to get one of the star prospects, we'll get a good one either way.

yup. It's been reduced to McDavid, Eichel and Hanifin a lot of times, but there are actually a lot of intriguing prospects in this draft. Kylington has been playing in the SEL for quite some time now. Strome is 6'3 already and he's keeping up with McDavid in terms of scoring. Barzal, Konecny and White are all right handed forwards and we all know we could use some of those. Add Zacha, Crouse, Sprong, Werenski and Marner and you have a really deep pool of talented players. I'm not worried by our draft position at all, we'll get a great prospect in any case.

[Caged Great]

Add in Jeremy Roy on the back end, he's quick with a good shot. He's only 6-0 though so not especially tall. I kind of expect him to push himself into the top 10 as well. He's not a huge amount off Kylington (although I'd take Kylington easily over him)

[heep223]

Nine out of the last ten Stanley Cup Champions had at least one top three draft pick in the ten drafts prior to them winning. It is possible to build a Stanley Cup champion without having top 3 picks but only the 07/08 Wings accomplished this. 2014/15 Flames are added for illustrative purposes. I was surprised to see how many first rounders the Wings traded away....I guess when you're that good at scouting, you don't need first rounders.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Its a valid point that the Pens got to where they have done with Crosby. But what about the Bruins? How many top 10 picks that they drafted were in their roster for their 10-11 Stanley Cup win? By my count, just Seguin.

The Bruins built their team around a once-in-a-century UFA signing.

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Same with the Kings. Their roster is hardly stacked with their own top 10 draft picks.

Besides Doughty (3rd overall), and Kopitar (11th - close enough)? And Carter, who they had to give up a young player drafted 3rd overall to acquire? No top three picks in Doughty and Johnson/Carter, and no Cups for the kings.

I'm not saying every team needs top-5 drafted players to be a contender. But most do.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by heep223

Nine out of the last ten Stanley Cup Champions had at least one top three draft pick in the ten drafts prior to them winning. It is possible to build a Stanley Cup champion without having top 3 picks but only the 07/08 Wings accomplished this. 2014/15 Flames are added for illustrative purposes. I was surprised to see how many first rounders the Wings traded away....I guess when you're that good at scouting, you don't need first rounders.

to be fair, Bobby Ryan only played 2 playoff games for Anaheim in 2007 and Tyler Seguin also wasn't exactly an impact player for the Bruins in the 2011 playoffs (he was scratched for the first two series I believe).

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Add in Jeremy Roy on the back end, he's quick with a good shot. He's only 6-0 though so not especially tall. I kind of expect him to push himself into the top 10 as well. He's not a huge amount off Kylington (although I'd take Kylington easily over him)

If we are drafting around 7-10, you obviously take Kylington if he drops. If not Kylington, I would love to grab Sprong or Roy.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by heep223

Nine out of the last ten Stanley Cup Champions had at least one top three draft pick in the ten drafts prior to them winning. It is possible to build a Stanley Cup champion without having top 3 picks but only the 07/08 Wings accomplished this. 2014/15 Flames are added for illustrative purposes. I was surprised to see how many first rounders the Wings traded away....I guess when you're that good at scouting, you don't need first rounders.

Well, the Flames are also getting great results out of late picks recently, which definitely helps. Getting Brodie and Gaudreau in the 4th round is pretty good. The Flames need more star talent obviously, but they also need them playing in the right way and that to me is the more important part.

The Flames have one of the top 5 defense pairings in the NHL already, and 3 top end forwards (Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett). They just need to keep adding to that. We don't know what Sven, Ferland, Granlund, Reinhart, Poirier, Klimchuk, Wotherspoon, Kulak, Sieloff, or Jankowski will turn into. Maybe one or more of them develops in the same manner that Brodie has (from just okay into awesome).

Just have to see how things shake out.