One thing I would have liked for someone to have done was, question the pewpolls that Maher and Harris were quoting.
Ask them to explain how the pewpolls they were quoting were produces, what numbers were polled, countries and what controls were utilized in said polling.
If Maher and Harris couldn't answer and don't know enough about the information they are using as gospel, then they shouldn't be cherry picking information useful for their arguments.
But you wouldn't have a show without uninformed views and comments!
It's probably less about his feelings about Islam and more about his feelings about religion in general. Mahar is a chest beating atheist.
Affleck does come off badly, but I wasn't that impressed with Harris either. A lot about what he said (says) has the feeling of 'there's lies, damned lies, and there's statistics' to it. The numbers could be true, but it's not the whole story, and it's probably cherry picked some.
The biggest issue I believe is simply the wealth and education levels of the countries that are Islamic or largely Islamic. I'm not going to say that as it exists in the world now, there are outdated, prejudicaln and even violent ideas and movements associated with Islam. Not just associated, but intertwined with. And yes, more so than other religions.
However, is that because of the religion, or simply because a lot of people practicing it are poor and uneducated? It's the latter. Anyone remember the dark ages of Christianity? Just as violent. Just as harmful towards women. They just didn't have modern weapons.
As it stands now, there is obviously some truth to what Harris preaches. But, it's framing the whole discussion incorrectly. It would be better to look at the practitioners of Islam in first world countries and compare it to other religions that are big in those nations. Then I believe you would find the stats quite similar.
Affleck is 100% emotional on the subject. I get that and it does afflect the conversation... (did you see what I did there #clevergirl)
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By the way already seeing some comments about Harris being focused on a flawed poll, here is is full response to critics calling him a Islamaphobe et al.
Islam does have a problem, but to claim its the core tenets of the religion is ignoring history. Politics is what drives the hardcore believers of today into jihadists. Both Sam Harris and Bill Maher claim to be intellectuals, but are guilty of oversimplification. Prior to 70 years ago, Muslim lands were apparently accepting of people of other faiths. Evidence of this is the Christians and Jews who had lived in places like Iraq and Syria for hundreds of years. Perceived injustice against Muslims in their lands is what drives the conflicts we see today. The fall of the Ottoman empire and the dividing of the spoils of war by the Colonial powers is a big part in the problem. A lack of education, hope, and opportunity is also a sizable part of the issue. Anyone who watched their countries decline over the last century would be angry.
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I don't think its oversimplification at all, a significant number of people who follow the faith have ideas that are to liberals quite disturbing and certainly do not conform to western ideals.
This video is from Norway, they are not extremists in this video nor is the audience, but do watch it to get the point Harris makes that a lot of "moderates" in Islam hold deeply troubling ideas.
Certainly agree the west has helped make things worse and many of these nations are impoverished, suffering through long periods of war, loss of hope, etc.. But there is a longer term thing going on here which Bernard Lewis covers nicely about the decline of the old Islamic empire.
Bernard Lewis on what went wrong covers all this in this video>
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I'll have to watch those videos later. I don't disagree that we would find aspects to be contrary to our values. Just as we find aspects of any Abrahamic religion to be contrary to modern values. There will always be literal interpreters in all faiths, whether or not their views become mainstream is dependent on the level of education within the population. Harris and Maher are treating the Islamic world as a homogeneous place which is an oversimplification.
The problems here (Iraq) and in Egypt are not just ones of economics (oil). There are societal issues as well. 3 groups of people being forced to live under one leader by outside forces (Britain and US propping up Hussein). The Kurds hate the Shi'Ite and don't particularly care for the Sunni, or any Arabs for that matter. The Shi'ite hate the Sunni and vice versa, and have for centuries (long story).
A systemic lack of education has created generations upon generations of sheep, unfortunately.
In Egypt, with the advent of the internet and knowledge sharing, you are seeing unrest because the youth are in revolt and the older generations are suppressing them, brutally, if they have to.
Islam is trying to change, I personally believe. I believe the new generations coming (minus those tainted by Jihadism) are going to make Islam a better religion. Change is dirty and its bloody. And that is what we are seeing right now. It doesn't happen overnight, it takes generations.
Oil is just that, it is a combustible that is being thrown in the mix of an already fiery situation. The Kurds are honestly some of the most progressive Muslims I have encountered in my travels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daradon
It's probably less about his feelings about Islam and more about his feelings about religion in general. Mahar is a chest beating atheist.
Affleck does come off badly, but I wasn't that impressed with Harris either. A lot about what he said (says) has the feeling of 'there's lies, damned lies, and there's statistics' to it. The numbers could be true, but it's not the whole story, and it's probably cherry picked some.
The biggest issue I believe is simply the wealth and education levels of the countries that are Islamic or largely Islamic. I'm not going to say that as it exists in the world now, there are outdated, prejudicaln and even violent ideas and movements associated with Islam. Not just associated, but intertwined with. And yes, more so than other religions.
However, is that because of the religion, or simply because a lot of people practicing it are poor and uneducated? It's the latter. Anyone remember the dark ages of Christianity? Just as violent. Just as harmful towards women. They just didn't have modern weapons.
As it stands now, there is obviously some truth to what Harris preaches. But, it's framing the whole discussion incorrectly. It would be better to look at the practitioners of Islam in first world countries and compare it to other religions that are big in those nations. Then I believe you would find the stats quite similar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caged Great
It is possible to be critical of a person or group of people without denigrating them. In this case, both Maher, Harris and Affleck were wrong in each of their own ways. Affleck, saying generalizations of groups of people is wrong, while in most cases it is wrong, in some cases it is not. You have to listen to the exact argument that is being posited and what they are discussing before saying "ooh you're generalizing them, and that's bad". Maher and Harris were wrong for not fully thinking before speaking and not wording what the concepts that they were trying to convey correctly.
Islam does have problems and does need to have some criticism levied it's way. The Catholic church has it's problems and has had criticism levied it's way. Islams' main problem is it reticence with modernity. Most of society has entered the 21st century in it's acceptance of people and their own ways of doing things. The current catholic pope has recognized this shift in the manner in which most of western culture acts and reacts to these things and is shifting church policy accordingly. He's gone so far as to become accepting of gays, which is something I never thought would ever come from there.
Islam though in part seems stuck in the 13th century (mostly the extremists) in their behaviour and attitudes, especially towards women. Because of this lack of modernity, it should be allowed to be criticized without being slammed by people like Affleck. If norms are not challenged, then they cannot be changed and the only way to really challenge a set of norms is to levy criticism. That does not get aided by the disrespect shown by Maher/Harris by saying that it's the motherload of bad ideas and other stupid comments. Islam is no more or less inherently good or inherently bad than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism. It is how the religion is practiced that is a problem. The tenants of Islam are actually extremely peaceful and intellectually based. However, a sizable portion of the followers are selective with how they view the tenants of their religion, much in the same manner that some Christians quote Leviticus to slam gays. This selective reading is the vehicle that lead to extremism in the first place.
In order for progress to be made in the Muslim culture, they need to modernize. In order to not come across as a jerk and shut down the receptiveness of the people you're trying to convince to change, you have to have well thought out ideas and suggestions to help facilitate change. By selectively criticizing the ideas and concepts that do not comport with modern society in a way most of the world find acceptable, you are not attacking the person for the entirety of their beliefs, just a few concepts. Saying that Islam is the motherload of bad ideas is directly attacking the person for believing in Islam, and that should not be acceptable.
Nuance is key to a discussion like this, and none of them were nuanced in their approach to the conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burn_this_city
Islam does have a problem, but to claim its the core tenets of the religion is ignoring history. Politics is what drives the hardcore believers of today into jihadists. Both Sam Harris and Bill Maher claim to be intellectuals, but are guilty of oversimplification. Prior to 70 years ago, Muslim lands were apparently accepting of people of other faiths. Evidence of this is the Christians and Jews who had lived in places like Iraq and Syria for hundreds of years. Perceived injustice against Muslims in their lands is what drives the conflicts we see today. The fall of the Ottoman empire and the dividing of the spoils of war by the Colonial powers is a big part in the problem. A lack of education, hope, and opportunity is also a sizable part of the issue. Anyone who watched their countries decline over the last century would be angry.
These are all quality posts and this kind of thinking makes me proud to be a member of this forum.
It is so easy to suggest "the people who are doing these terrible things are Islamic, therefore Islam must be evil". There is so much more to it than that, as these posters have eloquently stated.
No society should be judged by the worst of it's members.
Last edited by longsuffering; 10-14-2014 at 10:56 AM.
Reason: Clarity
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I haven't yet seen the episode - so it's impossible to comment directly or to join in the conversation - but I have noticed that while I enjoy watching Maher weekly he is at his absolutely weakest when discussing Islam.
For the amount of information he must consume to be able to put forth an educated opinion on (most) things, it seems as though he is perfectly happy being ignorant in that specific area, which tends to cause more negative reactions than positive.
I'll have to watch those videos later. I don't disagree that we would find aspects to be contrary to our values. Just as we find aspects of any Abrahamic religion to be contrary to modern values. There will always be literal interpreters in all faiths, whether or not their views become mainstream is dependent on the level of education within the population. Harris and Maher are treating the Islamic world as a homogeneous place which is an oversimplification.
But Harris is not, and what we care about is what is done in practice by the faithful in all religious that is against the values and ideals of a modern society.
We routinely criticize Christianity, Catholicism, Hindu's, etc for any beliefs that lead to bad outcomes, gay rights, women's rights, et al.
The thing is when we go after Islam, the left tends to jump and claim bigotry from the get go. When we have evidence that a lot of people hold bad ideas that are deeply troubling then we have to call it out, which is what the western liberals are seemingly unwilling to do.
Maybe its the fact the right has its xenophobic, religious fear of Islam and the left feels uncomfortable seeing itself as allies to such a bigoted group of people. Not to suggest all on the right are bigots for their criticisms of Islam, but there is a real serious problem with fear of Islam and much of it not based on reality.
The thing about education and literal-ism or extremism is actually not very true in the sense that the 9/11 bombers were all very well educated, mostly western educated people. Many of the terrorists you find in EU like in the 7/7 bombings and the attacks in Spain are again, well educated people.
A great British Muslim Maajid Nawaz is trying to work towards a religious reformation in Islam, he also covers this idea that its only uneducated desperate muslims that are the problem as being factually dishonest..
An example of worry some beliefs:
Another good video from Maajid, really enjoy listening to this guy.
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Uff Salon has been a perfect example of the Left's tendency to scream bigotry and Islamaphobia, Harris even called them out this week after the Real Time show argument.
That took less than two seconds of their time, and the message was sent to millions of people. I know one thing to a moral certainty, however: Both Greenwald and Aslan know that those words do not mean what they appear to mean. Given the amount of correspondence we’ve had on these topics, and given that I have repeatedly bored audiences by clarifying that statement (in response to this kind of treatment), the chance that either writer thinks he is exposing the truth about my views—or that I’m really a “genocidal fascist maniac”—is zero. Aslan and Greenwald—a famous “scholar” and a famous “journalist”—are engaged in a campaign of pure defamation. They are consciously misleading their readers and increasing my security concerns in the process.
No matter how completely opposed I may have been to another person’s views, I have not behaved like that. I have never knowingly distorted the positions I criticize, whether they are the doctrines of a religion or the personal beliefs of Francis Collins, Eben Alexander, Deepak Chopra, Reza Aslan, Glenn Greenwald, or any other writer or public figure with whom I’ve collided. The crucial boundary between hard-hitting criticism and defamation is knowing that you are misrepresenting your target.
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There is a ton of follow up to this, blogs, articles, video, but lets just start here with the discussion, firstly was Harris and Maher being bigoted and does the Left fail with regards to calling out Islam because of fears of being called bigots, Islamaphobes?
Going back to Thor's original question, I don't think one can really answer it based on this particular video. Any chance the conversation had to be productive died with Affleck's aggressive interjections off the top, the result being no party having a chance to clearly elucidate their position.
This issue (the left supposedly protecting Islam from attack) is new to me. I suppose the obvious parallel would be the right's knee-jerk reaction to criticisms of Israel. I'm not entirely persuaded it's a right-left issue at all, but if it is, it's one that must correlate awfully strangely with that spectrum.
As a total aside, I must say I'm not a fan of the so called New Atheism, at least if Dawkins is representative of it.
Also wanted to add two VERY good results from the Pew poll:
These polls and the others you posted are interesting.
I would like to see what the results would be in Western Europe as well though. For example, Bosnia is often grouped in with Muslim countries, even though a majority of the population are not Muslims. In terms of numbers, countries like France and Britain have more Muslims than Bosnia and other SE European countries.
In general, "western" Muslims tend to be ignored.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 10-14-2014 at 11:00 AM.
I'm a big Maher fan, but his rhetoric on this issue is pretty extreme, even given his seemingly incessant anti-religious schtick. I think both sides had some good points, but Affleck's point about not over-generalizing was probably the most important one made. Well, that, and Steele's point that the media really shapes our thinking on this issue in its ongoing choice to paint a pretty extreme picture of Islam. As an aside, Nicholas Kristof is such a smart, thoughtful dude. I could listen to him explain anything.
Not that I disagreed with everything they said, but it was pretty rich to see Maher and Harris upset over what they perceived to be Affleck pre-judging them. Obviously Harris is still upset because he keeps talking about it. I don't expect he will get the irony, but I got a chuckle out of it nonetheless.
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fatso, the reason Harris is still upset is not because of Affleck, its the attacks he's receiving from all over the left media, blogosphere where he has been taken about as out of context as you can imagine.
I pretty much loathe Maher, so I have little interest in defending him, even if he was worthy of it
