2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[RyZ]

I don't see why the Flames don't trade him. They clearly don't want him to be a "shifty/skilled" winger in their system so why not get something back for him instead of trying to change the game that got him to where he is at in the first place? Having him stick in the AHL for the next year or 2 doesn't help the player or the team. If the quote is correct and other teams are interested, make the damn trade already. The 2 sides are clearly not on the same page and animosity will only grow.

Maybe a Sven for a former high pick Dman that doesnt seem to be in a teams immediate plans like a Gormley or Despres could work for everybody.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm starting to think those three goals he scored in five games in 2011-2012 were the worst thing to happen to him, expectation wise.

It definitely didn't help, but knocking him down to the 3rd and 4th line last year I think did more damage in the long-term. The guy wasn't allowed to make a mistake without being reprimanded, and it turned him into a meek little mouse.

Go look at AC's Monahan video from last year, and notice how much chemistry there was between the too. I honestly think that if they kept those together, both would be succeeding right now. Young guys need to be allowed to make more mistakes than vets, yet many times with Hartley, it's exactly the opposite. Some guys need the stick to succeed...and some guys, like Sven, clearly need more positive reinforcement. I'm not sure why the Flames don't seem to get this.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Table 5

It definitely didn't help, but knocking him down to the 3rd and 4th line last year I think did more damage in the long-term. The guy wasn't allowed to make a mistake without being reprimanded, and it turned him into a meek little mouse.

Go look at AC's Monahan video from last year, and notice how much chemistry there was between the too. I honestly think that if they kept those together, both would be succeeding right now. Young guys need to be allowed to make more mistakes than vets, yet many times with Hartley, it's exactly the opposite. Some guys need the stick to succeed...and some guys, like Sven, clearly need more positive reinforcement. I'm not sure why the Flames don't seem to get this.

It's because the Flames aren't looking at it objectively. Every team in the NHL has subjective factors that blind them of what's really going on.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'm starting to think those three goals he scored in five games in 2011-2012 were the worst thing to happen to him, expectation wise.

Yup same here. I think there are a few mis-steps that were taken here:

- Sven having too much early success and expecting too much of himself. I wouldn't say he's lazy or entitled, but when he's not scoring, he gets down on himself too easy. I know the NHL is a tough league, but I think part of player development may also be some confidence guiding, and I the Flames may have left Sven a little too much on his own. Esp demoting him on his b-day was a stinger for a guy who already has confidence problems.

- Jay Feaster just building massive expectations, calling him a NHL player when he wasn't one yet.

- Treliving/Hartley - given not earned quote. Really I get that you don't take that literally, but no point in even saying it. Some people might take it too seriously, if its just crazy fans ok, but if even 1 player really takes it too literally and feels shafted, just seems kind of goofy to say something that has no benefit, but can hurt you.

Lets not kid ourselves, making the opening day roster is a huge deal to young players, its the golden date for them after an off season where they work their asses off. Sven did, so he's frustrated and dissapointed - I dont see a problem with that at all. This is their career, their payday, their pride, their honor and a cumulation of hard work they put in.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Table 5

It definitely didn't help, but knocking him down to the 3rd and 4th line last year I think did more damage in the long-term. The guy wasn't allowed to make a mistake without being reprimanded, and it turned him into a meek little mouse.

Go look at AC's Monahan video from last year, and notice how much chemistry there was between the too. I honestly think that if they kept those together, both would be succeeding right now. Young guys need to be allowed to make more mistakes than vets, yet many times with Hartley, it's exactly the opposite. Some guys need the stick to succeed...and some guys, like Sven, clearly need more positive reinforcement. I'm not sure why the Flames don't seem to get this.

I still don't understand the reason for that first benching last year. There was nothing I could see in those games that said "Sven is out of place". That benching totally derailed his season and it was a garbage decision.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by RyZ;4940837[B

]I don't see why the Flames don't trade him. They clearly don't want him to be a "shifty/skilled" winger in their system s[/B]o why not get something back for him instead of trying to change the game that got him to where he is at in the first place? Having him stick in the AHL for the next year or 2 doesn't help the player or the team. If the quote is correct and other teams are interested, make the damn trade already.

Maybe a Sven for a former high pick Dman that doesnt seem to be in a teams immediate plans like a Gormley or Despres could work for everybody.

To me it looks like they're happy to have shifty skilled wingers so long as they're good enough.

Why do you say that he'll be in the AHL for the next 1-2 years?

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

I don't see how people can say that he's been mistreated. I've never seen him play above the competition. When did he achieve the merits that would give him a spot in a perfect meritocracy?

Very few players ever play "above" the competition, and young players even less so. Thats the stuff of all stars, etc.

When has Joe Colborne, Paul Byron or even Glencross or Stajan played "above" the competition? Same goes for probably 16 guys on every 20 man roster. They are there because they can play with the competition. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. Only the all star type players end up above the competition frequently rather than "at" the level of competition. That's how I see it anyway.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Having him stick in the AHL for the next year or 2 doesn't help the player or the team.

It doesn't? Since when?

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by codynw

It doesn't? Since when?

Usually the opposite of that is true.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by nik-

I still don't understand the reason for that first benching last year. There was nothing I could see in those games that said "Sven is out of place". That benching totally derailed his season and it was a garbage decision.

I don't think anyone knows. Sven and Monahan showed some great chemistry. They were always going to have up and down games, but there was some real momentum there that needed to be nurtured a bit. But nope, no mistakes allowed. Vets can get special treatment, but young kids cant.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Very few players ever play "above" the competition, and young players even less so. Thats the stuff of all stars, etc.

When has Joe Colborne, Paul Byron or even Glencross or Stajan played "above" the competition? Same goes for probably 16 guys on every 20 man roster. They are there because they can play with the competition. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. Only the all star type players end up above the competition frequently rather than "at" the level of competition. That's how I see it anyway.

If you're going to judge the team for mishandling him by not having him in the lineup, you can only base that on Sven clearly deserving a spot based on his play. I don't see how anyone can say that. I've honestly never seen that. At best you can have a debate about it.

Even Byron's best games have been far better than Bärtschi's best games as far as I recall.

Sven's dad might have different ideas but then dads usually do.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Very few players ever play "above" the competition, and young players even less so. Thats the stuff of all stars, etc.

When has Joe Colborne, Paul Byron or even Glencross or Stajan played "above" the competition? Same goes for probably 16 guys on every 20 man roster. They are there because they can play with the competition. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. Only the all star type players end up above the competition frequently rather than "at" the level of competition. That's how I see it anyway.

I think "competition" means other guys fighting for the spots on the Flames, not the opposition.

[Locke]

I honestly believe that Sven is in the Flames' plans, but just not right now.

He'll likely be on this team before the year is out.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

To me it looks like they're happy to have shifty skilled wingers so long as they're good enough.

Why do you say that he'll be in the AHL for the next 1-2 years?

Personally, I don't think Hartley wants him on the team, plain and simple.

Look at least year, after an admittedly terrible start in Abby he averaged a point per game in the final 2 months (25 ish games). However, he never got called back up like almost every other top 6 forward in Abby did for the 6-10 game stint at the end of last season. Why didn't he get the shot again? He was playing great. Knight came up, Reinhart, Granlund, Street, B Jones, everybody other than Sven got a shot. As soon as Feaster is gone, Hartley sends him down. The content of the "interview" with Svens father a few posts up. There is plenty of smoke billowing for the theory that Hartley just doesn't like him.

However, this is all purely speculation on my part and may be completely incorrect.

[dino7c]

entitled players these days...there is nothing wrong with the AHL for a player of that age

41GP 13G 16A 29P in the AHL last year

not bad but some of you act like he is too good for the league or something

[_Q_]

Yeah I think the first two call ups this season are Sven and Jooris.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

If you're going to judge the team for mishandling him by not having him in the lineup, you can only base that on Sven clearly deserving a spot based on his play. I don't see how anyone can say that. I've honestly never seen that. At best you can have a debate about it.

Even Byron's best games have been far better than Bärtschi's best games as far as I recall.

Sven's dad might have different ideas but then dads usually do.

Yeah, Baertschi had his moments last season but Byron took his job by being better.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Locke

I honestly believe that Sven is in the Flames' plans, but just not right now.

I do think he'll be up sooner rather than later, but if the situation hasn't changed for the positive by the end of the year (and he's not traded), I honestly could see him jetting back to Europe next year. I think this is the make or break it year for Sven on the Flames.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Locke

I honestly believe that Sven is in the Flames' plans, but just not right now.

He'll likely be on this team before the year is out.

Look who is sitting for tomorrow's game -- Jones and Setoguchi. It seems possible, even likely, that the Flames would rather play Sven than those two, but don't want him sitting in the press box. Which makes total sense to me.

So maybe we can calm down about the earned, never given bit?

They may also have Jooris ahead of both those guys, but not ahead of the guys dressing (and we all know Grats is not really a "depth chart" kind of consideration on RW).

[Coach]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Very few players ever play "above" the competition, and young players even less so. Thats the stuff of all stars, etc.

When has Joe Colborne, Paul Byron or even Glencross or Stajan played "above" the competition? Same goes for probably 16 guys on every 20 man roster. They are there because they can play with the competition. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. Only the all star type players end up above the competition frequently rather than "at" the level of competition. That's how I see it anyway.

I think he meant competition within the team, not the opposing team. In order for Baertschi to be on the opneing roster he had to beat Glencross, Hudler, Raymond, Gaudreau, Jones, Setogutchi and the bottom push of guys like Granlund, Ferland, Reinhart, Jooris, etc...

I think you can make a case for Setogutchi and Jones, but I think it's safe to say that both are probably gone before the end of the season, and I would say Jones for sure (would have to bring in some cap space some how).

From what I saw, he didn't outplay any of those players except for maybe Setogutchi. And even then, I don't think he outplayed Seto as much as he was about the same. Baertschi had to show himself above those players in order to earn their jobs, because those players have past performance to extrapolate from, Baertschi really doesn't.
But he just didnt outplay them. If there should be crying over anyone being cut, it should be Jooris and Ferland. They played better than any of the other options. But their not 1st rounders, so apparently it's not as much of a problem.