#nogoodway

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Is that not a good example or something? Set a pretty large precedent.

No it did not. When did we say we would be deleting threads just because a single word in a single post. Why would we just not delete the post or edit it?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by fatso

So now I think we've run the gamut of reasons why people refuse to stop using the word. We've got the false equivalency that people don't complain about other insults such as "stupid" so it makes no sense to complain about this one, the mere opinion that another word will take its place so why inconvenience oneself by stopping use of this one word, the very well thought out, "people everywhere are always upset about something so I should not care about this specific issue", and finally the "it's just a word, it's not a big deal" (yet, ironically, for "just" a word they sure are unwilling to let it go).

Of course, at no point did anyone say why it is important or significant to keep using the word. In fact, I gotta wonder about someone who uses a negative term like "######ed" - or any such word - so much in their daily life that they're fighting to keep using it. It says more about them as a person I suppose than anything else.

Also, I can't help but note that no one took Titan up on his hypothetical a few posts back. I assume those of you who don't see an issue with using the word "######ed" would use it in front of Darryl Sutter to describe your sandwich or the Kings PP? Ya, thought so.

Anyway, I don't really have much to add to my previous post, particularly since Titan is doing a much better job at explicating our position than I can do.

To me it's really just a consideration thing. As Titan says, there's no obligation to be considerate. If you don't care to be considerate, then just say so. If this is where you draw your line, then go forward fighting your good fight maintaining "gay" and "######ed" as descriptors. I hope you sleep easy at night knowing you've kept that corner of the English language alive for the day. I guess we'll see how successful you are twenty years from now.

That said, I don't believe stopping use of the word will end discrimination against the disabled nor do I think it's a particularly noble gesture to stop using it. I do however think not using it is a simple thing I can try to do to make others lives a little better, and which requires no time or effort from me. I really don't think that's such a burden living in a friendly society as we do.

I should address the ad hominem attack which has come up twice now. Briefly, I'll say that my user name is based on two sources. The first is a great Dom DeLuise movie I loved when I was younger called ‘fatso’. My recollection is that it was about developing confidence, even when others don't hold you in high regard because of your appearance. That's why I've only ever had his pic as my avatar from the day I joined this site. The other is from an excerpt from a piece called the Subject of Ideology by Terry Eagleton. One of the things that book is about is the way language and meaning are constantly contested in historical circumstances. I've had 'The Subject of Ideology' in my member biography, also since I joined. No one has ever pm'd me to ask about or discuss it, though I would have gladly had any such conversation. So Yasa, maybe let's not forget that should you choose to mischaracterize me or my position going forward.

Lol. It's ad hominem because you have some fond memories of a movie? So when it's you using a word that many people find offensive, it's ok. But when it's you scolding people for using another, completely random and arbitrary word, their arguments are "false equivalencies", and nonsensical, and people don't want to change because it's an inconvenience. Gotcha.

[Antithesis]

We need a term, similar to "Godwin's Law", to describe someone whining about the removal of the YLYL thread in a totally unrelated discussion and a completely inappropriate manner.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Lol. It's ad hominem because you have some fond memories of a movie? So when it's you using a word that many people find offensive, it's ok. But when it's you scolding people for using another, completely random and arbitrary word, their arguments are "false equivalencies", and nonsensical, and people don't want to change because it's an inconvenience. Gotcha.

Lol indeed. It's precisely an ad hominem argument, even with your reductive interpretation of why I selected my username.

Go back to the OP - it's about raising awareness about using the specific word "######" (which, by the way, I don't know how you can define as "completely arbitrary or random") and not about other potentially insulting words. If you want to undermine my credibility in relation to this specific issue, then you're welcome to show me where I've used the word "######" colloquially on this forum (and frankly, it's entirely possibly I may have done so in the past though I don't believe I would have).

Why not keep the debate to the merits of the arguments raised in relation to the issue in the OP? And really, if you want to criticize my conduct on the board or have an issue with my username (which is still unrelated to the OP) you're welcome to PM me or raise it with the mods.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by fatso

Lol indeed. It's precisely an ad hominem argument, even with your reductive interpretation of why I selected my username.

Go back to the OP - it's about raising awareness about using the specific word "######" (which, by the way, I don't know how you can define as "completely arbitrary or random") and not about other potentially insulting words. If you want to undermine my credibility in relation to this specific issue, then you're welcome to show me where I've used the word "######" colloquially on this forum (and frankly, it's entirely possibly I may have done so in the past though I don't believe I would have).

Why not keep the debate to the merits of the arguments raised in relation to the issue in the OP? And really, if you want to criticize my conduct on the board or have an issue with my username (which is still unrelated to the OP) you're welcome to PM me or raise it with the mods.

I'm not criticizing your conduct. You're refusing to acknowledge the point that a few people are making, that pretty much any word could be insulting to someone. You are basically accusing people of being too lazy to change. So if you refuse to see the point being made, I am offering you a good reason why you should see the point. Your very own username could be considered offensive. Yet you don't care about that. Which, personally, I agree with. But you still judge other people that don't agree with you that another word is suddenly offensive.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I'm not criticizing your conduct. You're refusing to acknowledge the point that a few people are making, that pretty much any word could be insulting to someone. You are basically accusing people of being too lazy to change. So if you refuse to see the point being made, I am offering you a good reason why you should see the point. Your very own username could be considered offensive. Yet you don't care about that. Which, personally, I agree with. But you still judge other people that don't agree with you that another word is suddenly offensive.

There's clearly a disconnect between us and there is no point going back and forth. You say the word is "suddenly" offensive. I just don't see how you can say that. I've also tried to be clear that the argument that "there are always words offensive to some" isn't really an argument in this specific circumstance given the specific past medical label of "######ation", its historical use, and the campaign asking for people to stop using it. Not all offensive or potentially offensive words are equally so. Your argument is a bait-and-switch imo. You disagree.

Further, I don't see how disagreeing with someone's position on this issue is "scolding", "judging", or "accusing" or whatever other verb you want to misuse. (I'm not sure how that's not criticizing someone's conduct in a debate but ok). I don't believe I've stated those opposed to the view Titan, myself and others share on this issue are acting in such a manner. If you think I'm wrong on this, that's fine. As I said in an earlier post, there's no obligation to change one's behaviour in this context, I just don't see a good reason not to. But that's just me.

I know you like to argue with me, but I can't imagine it's particularly interesting to anyone else. It's certainly not conducive to any debate the OP was intended to start. So, out of respect to the OP why don't you take it to PM? There you can critique my accusatory tendencies as you wish and we can let this thread move forward as intended.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No it did not. When did we say we would be deleting threads just because a single word in a single post. Why would we just not delete the post or edit it?

Not sure. Why didn't you just delete or edit offensive posts in the YLYL thread? Even the people who took issue with it admitted the whole thread wasn't the problem, only certain posts.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Not sure. Why didn't you just delete or edit offensive posts in the YLYL thread? Even the people who took issue with it admitted the whole thread wasn't the problem, only certain posts.

Because we decided the mere presence of the thread wasn't what CP was about.
Clearly though at NO POINT did we say 'from now on we are going to delete any thread in which an offensive post is made'.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by fatso

There's clearly a disconnect between us and there is no point going back and forth. You say the word is "suddenly" offensive. I just don't see how you can say that. I've also tried to be clear that the argument that "there are always words offensive to some" isn't really an argument in this specific circumstance given the specific past medical label of "######ation", its historical use, and the campaign asking for people to stop using it. Not all offensive or potentially offensive words are equally so. Your argument is a bait-and-switch imo. You disagree.

Further, I don't see how disagreeing with someone's position on this issue is "scolding", "judging", or "accusing" or whatever other verb you want to misuse. (I'm not sure how that's not criticizing someone's conduct in a debate but ok). I don't believe I've stated those opposed to the view Titan, myself and others share on this issue are acting in such a manner. If you think I'm wrong on this, that's fine. As I said in an earlier post, there's no obligation to change one's behaviour in this context, I just don't see a good reason not to. But that's just me.

I know you like to argue with me, but I can't imagine it's particularly interesting to anyone else. It's certainly not conducive to any debate the OP was intended to start. So, out of respect to the OP why don't you take it to PM? There you can critique my accusatory tendencies as you wish and we can let this thread move forward as intended.

You think that this is me arguing with you because I like to argue with you? Don't flatter yourself. I disagree that "######" is offensive. It's just a word whose meaning has become ambiguous, and part of popular lexicon. Deciding to be offended by that word is your choice, just as it it your choice to be offended by stupid or idiot or fatso.
And the only reason I am talking directly to you is because you, using a name that could be considered offensive by some, are leading the charge here.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by 4X4

You think that this is me arguing with you because I like to argue with you? Don't flatter yourself. I disagree that "######" is offensive. It's just a word whose meaning has become ambiguous, and part of popular lexicon. Deciding to be offended by that word is your choice, just as it it your choice to be offended by stupid or idiot or fatso.
And the only reason I am talking directly to you is because you, using a name that could be considered offensive by some, are leading the charge here.

Ah, sure 4X4... I'll bite.

Thanks for clarifying that you don't think "######ed" is offensive. I really hadn't understood that from your previous posts.

Tell you what, as I'm "leading the charge" on this one, should Motionball come to CP I'll let them you know you disagree with the basis of their campaign, and I'll also inform them you think that any other unrelated or irrelevant word any one else may find offensive is really just that person's choice.

Anything else? I'm hoping that's it. Even I'm finding this tedious, so I can only imagine it's insufferable to read for anyone actually interested in the OP. For the third time, just PM me and we can let this thread move forward rather than going in circles. We can talk about all kinds of things from my vanity to your seeming need for my approval/agreement.

[Lionel Steel]

Originally Posted by fatso

No he's not. He's talking about wanting to use a hurtful word because it communicates a specific meaning to him.

Originally Posted by fatso

I should address the ad hominem attack which has come up twice now. Briefly, I'll say that my user name is based on two sources. The first is a great Dom DeLuise movie I loved when I was younger called ‘fatso’. My recollection is that it was about developing confidence, even when others don't hold you in high regard because of your appearance. That's why I've only ever had his pic as my avatar from the day I joined this site. The other is from an excerpt from a piece called the Subject of Ideology by Terry Eagleton. One of the things that book is about is the way language and meaning are constantly contested in historical circumstances. I've had 'The Subject of Ideology' in my member biography, also since I joined. No one has ever pm'd me to ask about or discuss it, though I would have gladly had any such conversation. So Yasa, maybe let's not forget that should you choose to mischaracterize me or my position going forward.

Sliver can't use the a disparaging term for the mentally disabled because it "communicates a specific meaning to him," but you can use a disparaging term for the obese because it communicates a specific meaning to you? Would it really be that hard for you to honor Dom Deluise without using a word that could offend a large group of people? Was Captain Chaos taken?

Would someone be allowed to have the user name "Full ######" if they cited their love of Tropic Thunder as the reasoning behind it?

[Titan]

Originally Posted by 4X4

... I disagree that "######" is offensive. It's just a word whose meaning has become ambiguous, and part of popular lexicon. Deciding to be offended by that word is your choice, just as it it your choice to be offended by stupid or idiot or fatso.

As has been said, you can have whatever opinion you want. The dictionary definitions I cite below would tend to disagree. Even Urban Dictionary if you can believe it.

Being a part of the popular lexicon is separate from the fact that the word is offensive. ###### is used many times in film and music. Does that make it okay? I would suggest not but your opinion can differ.

I actually think you do have a point about Fatso's user name. Although, the reasons he/she adopted it are benign, the reality is you would be unlikely to call someone that term to their face, particularly if they are in fact overweight. I would agree some would take offense. In fact, if I understand the premise of the movie, it is in fact used in a derogatory term. Do I think he/she should change it? Not really, or sure, I actually don't care that much. However, even if we assume some hypocrisy, it in no way diminishes the strength of the argument Fatso put forward. (I actually do cringe a bit when I type that so... maybe I do find it a tad offensive.)

The irony is that this is the exact argument that was raised in the YLYL imbroglio. The CP powers that be decided that ant-female postings were not appropriate. I agree with that. I also think we should not have threads where the use of ###### is openly used. Same for ######. I think ###### is probably in the same group of words. Is it the same? No. Is it as bad? No. Is that enough to save it? No. In my opinion, of course.

(The dictionary listings all had the alternate meanings of the word as well. Of course, I only selected the part that applied to this conversation. I agree completely that there are many valid uses of the word.

Dictionary.com
Slang: Disparaging and Offensive.
a contemptuous term used to refer to a person who cognitively impaired.
a person who is stupid, obtuse, or ineffective in some way:
a hopeless social ######.

Merriam-Webster:

often offensive : a ######ed person; also : a person held to resemble a ######ed person in behavior

urban Dictionary: (For ####s and giggles)

######
A person born with a mental condition and therefore has to work a million times harder to be able to do simple things (such as learn and communicate) that we take for granted. On top of this, a ###### will usually suffer a lot of ridicule from society because people fear what they do not understand. The people who choose to make fun of the mental ######ed tend to be complete morons and cannot comprehend that these people have feelings and emotions just like anyone else.
I find it amusing that saying somebody has cancer would not be taken as a joke and yet, using another disease such as mental ######ed as an insult is common among society, and many do not realize that it is very offensive and that there is something seriously wrong about it.
by unknown June 29, 2003

[Daradon]

Are people arguing that '######' isn't pejorative? Wow.

I remember KTrain bringing this up four or five years ago. I didn't use it much back then but made a conscious effort to completely drop it from my speech. It is extremely offensive.

There are some interesting points though about the evolution of language. Cretin and moron were extremely offensive before, this is true. It appears some people here don't know or understand the true meaning of the word or why it's hurtful, instead focusing on a generic meaning. Is this bad? Isn't a way to take back a word to remove it's power? If we all focused on the generic meaning of the word, would it be offensive to people born with mental disabilities 50 years from now? I dunno.

Simply though. As it stands now, it is offensive, and an education campaign is warrented.

[Daradon]

Are people arguing that '######' isn't pejorative? Wow.

I remember KTrain bringing this up four or five years ago. I didn't use it much back then but made a conscious effort to completely drop it from my speech. It is extremely offensive.

There are some interesting points though about the evolution of language. Cretin and moron were extremely offensive before, this is true. It appears some people here don't know or understand the true meaning of the word or why it's hurtful, instead focusing on a generic meaning. Is this bad? Isn't a way to take back a word to remove it's power? If we all focused on the generic meaning of the word, would it be offensive to people born with mental disabilities 50 years from now? I dunno.

Simply though. As it stands now, it is offensive, and an education campaign is warrented.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Lionel Steel

Sliver can't use the a disparaging term for the mentally disabled because it "communicates a specific meaning to him," but you can use a disparaging term for the obese because it communicates a specific meaning to you? Would it really be that hard for you to honor Dom Deluise without using a word that could offend a large group of people? Was Captain Chaos taken?

Would someone be allowed to have the user name "Full ######" if they cited their love of Tropic Thunder as the reasoning behind it?

Oh Lionel… the problem with very selective quoting is that you can completely mischaracterize someone’s position. Perhaps that was your intent. “can’ t use”? Of course, I never said that. Not that I could disallow someone’s behavior, but I haven’t even suggested that stance.

I note you chose not to quote where I said it was fine if people didn’t agree with my position on this issue, nor did you quote where I explicitly stated that no one is any under obligation to change their behavior in this context. Or the multiple times I said this is really a consideration issue.

As for my username, it is telling those who insist they should not stop using the word “######” want to make this about everything other than the specific issue raised in the OP. But sure, I’ll play along.

Of course, you misunderstood my position. I wasn’t honouring Dom Deluise, I was honouring the spirit of the movie and maybe I wasn’t clear about that. I take your point about Tropic Thunder, though it wasn’t called “Full ######” and, in any event, it wasn’t at all about empowerment but was rather a cynical look at Hollywood appropriation of various groups for profit (and for the record, I effing love Tropic Thunder).

You also conveniently glide past the text I also cited. More importantly, and also conveniently, you also glide past where I said in my years on this board no one has raised in any way my username with me, but if they did “I would have gladly had any such conversation”. But hey, why let basic facts prevent you from mischaracterizing someone’s position if it can make someone else seems as unreasonable as you?

Of course, the only relevant line of argument against my username here would be for you to show me a campaign by Motionball or someone else to ban the word fatso presented on this board and with which I disagreed. You're welcome to draw the same to my attention.

But even if I’m wrong about my username, as totally irrelevant to this issue as it is, does it invalidate what I’ve said? Does it invalidate what Titan, KTrain, Daradon and others have said? As I said to 4x4 if you want to argue my credibility or think I'm disingenuous, take it to PM. It doesn’t really have much to do with Motionball’s campaign, does it?

[doctajones428]

So can we still call people stupid or dumb or are we banning the S and D words too?

I'm so confused.

[Wormius]

I think some of the posters here must have lived through such enlightened times that they can't comprehend that "######" or "gay" could be insulting to not only the person or situation that they are using the words to describe, but the people that those terms had labelled. I mean, that's just incredible that they've never heard those words used derogatorily.

I really don't get it. The term "######ed" was synonymous with a person who was afflicted with mental ######ation. So one aspect of that - being slow to learn or understand some things - is taken to create this insult for people who do things that you considered stupid or idiotic.

I am not entirely sure how some don't see this as offensive or inappropriate? Like somebody else commented, would you use that in front of Darryl Sutter and his son? If you saw somebody with Down's Syndrome doing something you considered worthy of that insult, would you use it, or is there something in your consciousness that tells you that it's offensive and you know exactly why it's offensive.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I think some of the posters here must have lived through such enlightened times that they can't comprehend that "######" or "gay" could be insulting to not only the person or situation that they are using the words to describe, but the people that those terms had labelled. I mean, that's just incredible that they've never heard those words used derogatorily.

Of course it is offensive and insulting. That's why people use it - to insult somebody who is doing something really really stupid. Or to describe a really dumb situation that just shouldn't be. I think it's incredible you have misunderstood this conversation to such a degree that you think people don't think the word is insulting. It's meant to be insulting because it's an insult.

Originally Posted by Wormius

I really don't get it. The term "######ed" was synonymous with a person who was afflicted with mental ######ation. So one aspect of that - being slow to learn or understand some things - is taken to create this insult for people who do things that you considered stupid or idiotic.

You don't get it? Wow, it's hard to comprehend what your trouble is here. So there is a word for an entire group of people that are "slow to learn or understand some things" and people have taken that word and applied to people when they do something slow or have a hard time understanding things. And that doesn't make sense to you? Maybe the word should be banned, but don't pretend it's this giant leap in logic as to why it's being used in the first place.

Originally Posted by Wormius

I am not entirely sure how some don't see this as offensive or inappropriate? Like somebody else commented, would you use that in front of Darryl Sutter and his son? If you saw somebody with Down's Syndrome doing something you considered worthy of that insult, would you use it, or is there something in your consciousness that tells you that it's offensive and you know exactly why it's offensive.

And of course you wouldn't use that term in front of somebody like Darryl Sutter and his son. That argument is asinine. If I tell my friend to quit being ######ed, that's one thing. It doesn't mean I would go around using the word all willy-nilly with no regard for potentially hurt feelings by people I don't know or people with mentally disabled family members.

I think you are being slow to learn or understand this.

[Titan]

Sliver, 4x4 specifically said he does not think the word is offensive. That is what Wormius is responding to.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Of course it is offensive and insulting. That's why people use it - to insult somebody who is doing something really really stupid. Or to describe a really dumb situation that just shouldn't be. I think it's incredible you have misunderstood this conversation to such a degree that you think people don't think the word is insulting. It's meant to be insulting because it's an insult.



You don't get it? Wow, it's hard to comprehend what your trouble is here. So there is a word for an entire group of people that are "slow to learn or understand some things" and people have taken that word and applied to people when they do something slow or have a hard time understanding things. And that doesn't make sense to you? Maybe the word should be banned, but don't pretend it's this giant leap in logic as to why it's being used in the first place.



And of course you wouldn't use that term in front of somebody like Darryl Sutter and his son. That argument is asinine. If I tell my friend to quit being ######ed, that's one thing. It doesn't mean I would go around using the word all willy-nilly with no regard for potentially hurt feelings by people I don't know or people with mentally disabled family members.

I think you are being slow to learn or understand this.

Sliver, come on, you can't be serious. You are smarter than this.

I know you gig it to troll the board in both subtle and unsubtle ways, but you must be able to see this issue.

I have said this before, but it's up to those not affect to decide what is offensive or not.

The very fact that you say you wouldn't say it infront of D Sutter and his son, Tells me you know that the word isn't appropriate.

Therefore I can only assume this is a long game troll by you.