2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Funny... when I heard the coaches come out with "Always Earned, Never Given" I thought that applied to the vets too and there could be more than one rookie making the team this year.

... stupid me...

Uh yeah, pretty much.

If you honestly thought there was room for more than one rookie out of camp, that's on you.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Well, setoguchi will be traded or waived and sent down. Missteeks post all but confirms it IMO.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

This I just don't effing understand, we're a 27th place team and we're not ready to start moving our youngsters into the lineup? There's going to be a backlog next season if they don't get discouraged in the meantime.

Injuries will happen all season. This won't be the last we see of Baertschi and Jooris this year.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by saillias

What, don't remember Blair Jones? He had some diehard fans here.

I don't consider someone who played 128 NHL games over the course of 8 seasons to be a veteran NHL player. A veteran minor leaguer yes... but not an NHL'er.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Fun fact: Setoguchi - the ultra plug who was terrible last year - would have been 7th in scoring (by points and goals) among forwards on the Flames last year.

So he sucked on the team he was on last year, meaning he would ULTRA suck on the Flames this year.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Uh yeah, pretty much.

If you honestly thought there was room for more than one rookie out of camp, that's on you.

No, its on Hartley and crew. Next year if he spouts the same nonsense it will be on me.

[Fire]

Gaudreau deserved to make the team and did.
Baertschi was ok, but not great by any means. He needs to produce at a point per game pace and be respectable defensively to earn another call up.
Jooris had a good camp but he played over his head and I doubt he would be any more than a 4th liner in the NHL if that.
Ferland is the player I was the most disappointed at being sent down. He could easily slot in one of the top-3 RW spots on the team.
Granlund played well but with his injury he will probably be sent down for a while. He should be one of the first call ups.
Bennett will be sent down to the OHL where he belongs for one more season.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Baertschi is exhibit a of why you don't give them the keys to early and don't get them to earn a regular spot. Feaster handed one to him and now his expectations, confidence are all out of whack.

^^Couldn't have said it better. If he had to earn his spot from the beginning (before Feaster gave him one) most people wouldn't be too worried about Baertschi's situation, including Baertschi' himself. He likely would be focused on working just as hard as everyone else trying to earn a spot on the team.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

No, its on Hartley and crew. Next year if he spouts the same nonsense it will be on me.

Hartley doesn't decide the roster.

And the nonsense is only that in your head. Even look at the things Trevliving is saying regarding these obviously very tough decisions today. Tells me he recognizes the situation and needs to make some moves to get some of these guys up here at some point, but obviously can't make anything happen at the moment. Sounds like he's practicing what he preaches.

Do you even know who you're mad at? Or why?

[Ashasx]

Well, I'm sure many people will disagree with me. And that's fine.

But I can't help but feel this to be an unbelievable mistake by management.

Baertschi has gone from the fan favorite to the gutter in the span of 12 months. He has received nothing but unnecessary criticism from management and coaches while other players who are making the same mistakes get passes.

Colborne, who was god awful to start last season, was gifted a spot because he wasn't exempt from waivers. It turned out by the end of the season, and at least from the the pre-season this year, he's become a decent player. He didn't earn those minutes, yet he still developed and is continuing to develop. People seem to be just fine with Colborne this season. It turned out keeping him in the NHL was good for him.

And at the same time, we see numerous healthy scratches for Baertschi before Christmas. Few people on the forum were happy, many more upset with Hartley, and before Christmas, he's sent down to Abbotsford. Then Burke comes out and blasts him in the media, which was unquestionably the stupidest thing he's done as part of this management group. A 21-year old kid, who two and a half months prior, had such high expectations not just from fans, but from himself. Suddenly people labeled him as a poor defensive player, that he needed to round out his game in the AHL to get better.

What? Who actually thought this before Burke mentioned it? Statistically, Baertschi was no worse than Monahan. He was certainly much better than Colborne at the time as well.

He was a rookie. Nobody should have expected him to be Patrice Bergeron, but at the same time, it's not like he was the Mike Green of forwards. He was just fine. Burke exaggerated the issue.

So he's told to work on his two-way game in Abbotsford. He's told he needs to engage himself more in the game. He goes down to the Heat, where the genius coach decides to put him on the right side. Smart thing to try out something new with a player who was clearly frustrated with himself and lacking confidence. As a result, he barely puts up any points during his first couple months. He rebounds a little later when he's put back on LW, and the season ends.

He's told again in his exit interviews that he needs to focus on the defensive side of the game. Being physical, and involving himself in the corners, etc.

So he works hard in the off-season and comes into training camp in great shape once again. He's not expecting a spot to be handed to him. He knows what he has to do: be a better defensive player, engage yourself, and the points will come.

And he does that. He didn't put up many points in the pre-season, but Baertschi was always the first forward back on his line. He was always helping his defence below the hash marks. He was getting into scrums, throwing his weight around, and fighting in the corners.

And then happy birthday, Sven Baertschi, you're going back to the AHL, despite having improved upon all the aspects we asked you to improve upon. We need to make sure Setoguchi gets that ice time so we can hopefully trade him for a fourth round pick come the trade deadline.

And people are upset that he's confused? A little sad? Maybe a little angry? What other response would you want from a player? The organization continues to put him in positions to fail and then criticizes him when he does. And then the fans get on him.

Originally Posted by AcGold

Kind of shooting himself in the foot here. Saying something like that his bosses take notice, he should keep it for private conversations with his family and close friends. He doesn't know how to help his cause.

Really? He should keep this private? I'm sure Baertschi was thinking the same thing when Burke threw him to the wolves in front of reporters as well.

He was frustrated and was just answering a question truthfully. He never said he's going to give a half-assed effort in Adirondack. He never said he has nothing to learn in the AHL. He will go down and try to get back to the NHL. But I think fans, and management, need to understand that given all that's gone on in the last 12 months, that's not an easy thing to do.

It would be nice if all hockey players were the same. All boring robots who were motivated by the same things, who gave cliched answers in interviews. Unfortunately, they're not. You can't expect every prospect to respond the same way. (at the same time, no other player in our organization has been treated as poorly as Baertschi over the last 12 months, so it's really hard to compare how others would respond to similar adversity).

I think, for once, it would have been good to tell him something new for a change. "You done good, kid". Constant criticism over the last year hasn't worked. Attacking him and no other players hasn't worked. This was an opportunity missed to change the downward spiral.

He didn't outplay Gaudreau (no other forward did, vet or rookie), but he certainly outplayed most of the forwards at camp.

So don't get mad at Baertschi. Don't call him an entitled brat. Don't call him a whiner. No other player on this team has gone through the adversity he's had to face.

I think he earned the spot, but even if he didn't, the same old same old isn't working. I don't know why people would expect it to work in the first place.

My apologies for any spelling or grammar mistakes as I haven't had time to edit.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

“@SUNRandySportak: Treliving re: today's uproar : “Trust that people who deserve to be here will be here at some point and people that don't, won't.” #Flames”

Sounds like Treliving has realized that he ain't living in Scottsdale anymore.
By noon he probably said to himself... "Holy crap! Who are these people with all the torches and pitchforks? It was never like this in Phoenix! "

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I don't consider someone who played 128 NHL games over the course of 8 seasons to be a veteran NHL player. A veteran minor leaguer yes... but not an NHL'er.

Actually, that begs a question. How many NHL games must one play before being considered a "veteran"? The Flames have eight guys on the roster right now (excluding those likely to start on IR) with less than 128 NHL games. Only one, Bollig, would qualify as a professional veteran.

Bollig (125)
Bouma (121)
Colborne (96)
Ramo (88)
Byron (81)
Monahan (75)
Gaudreau (1)
Bennett (0)

Fully one-third of the lineup comprises of players with less than the equivalent of two NHL seasons. And guys like Brodie and Backlund aren't much further ahead.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Never understood why the Flames have misjudged and mishandled one of their greatest assets so poorly. Sven was playing very well in his limited ice time last year, better than many vets, and just as well as golden boy Monahan...yet Burke goes out of his way to criticize him, and then send him to the minors. He comes back this camp and is clearly one of the better forwards on the ice....and they send him down again. It's likely they are trying to break his spirit or something. If anyone thinks he needs more time in the minors they are delusional...

Lol. I think you are delusional. "Trying to break his spirit"? Played as well as Monahan?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Sounds like Treliving has realized that he ain't living in Scottsdale anymore.
By noon he probably said to himself... "Holy crap! Who are these people with all the torches and pitchforks? It was never like this in Phoenix! "

Good lord.

Yeah, that's it, he has no ability to assess players himself and obviously is only saying these things in reaction to the fans so that they don't want to fire him right away.

I don't even care if you're joking, it's a stupid thing to imply. He's a pro and he knows what he's doing. Plus, Burke is always a phone call away to tell him he's screwing it up, so I don't think he needs you, or any other fan, to advise him.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Sven was a lot better to start this season, which was why he was among the last cuts. Now he has to prove himself in the AHL and be one of the first callups.

He should feel good about himself, I hope he does, he made positive strides.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Actually, that begs a question. How many NHL games must one play before being considered a "veteran"? The Flames have eight guys on the roster right now (excluding those likely to start on IR) with less than 128 NHL games. Only one, Bollig, would qualify as a professional veteran.

Bollig (125)
Bouma (121)
Colborne (96)
Ramo (88)
Byron (81)
Monahan (75)
Gaudreau (1)
Bennett (0)

Fully one-third of the lineup comprises of players with less than the equivalent of two NHL seasons. And guys like Brodie and Backlund aren't much further ahead.

Purely subjective on my part, but I would consider someone who has 3 seasons worth of games (240 or thereabouts) under their belt, to be a veteran.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Good lord.

Yeah, that's it, he has no ability to assess players himself and obviously is only saying these things in reaction to the fans so that they don't want to fire him right away.

I don't even care if you're joking, it's a stupid thing to imply. He's a pro and he knows what he's doing. Plus, Burke is always a phone call away to tell him he's screwing it up, so I don't think he needs you, or any other fan, to advise him.

It was a joke. Don't get your panties in a knot.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Sven was a lot better to start this season, which was why he was among the last cuts. Now he has to prove himself in the AHL and be one of the first callups.

He should feel good about himself, I hope he does, he made positive strides.

^^Pretty simple nothing more than that!

Right now the Flames management probably has a few things on they want to do with the guys they have kept up and Sven will fit in at some point. Nothing to see here.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Purely subjective on my part, but I would consider someone who has 3 seasons worth of games (240 or thereabouts) under their belt, to be a veteran.

Ok, fair enough. Under those criteria (assuming 240 NHL games), about half of our lineup in any given game would not qualify as veterans. Using 240 professional games, I think it would still just under a third of the lineup.

Good exercise. Helps add a little perspective.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

@ Ashasx's very long post

You have a lot of valid points, and I want to say I'm happily surprised that you were so even handed in your post. You haven't always been that way with regards to Baertschi.

I agree with most of what you said, but I'm not sure all of it is true.

While he wasn't statistically bad last year defensively, he was definitely not ready to compete at the NHL level. You only had to watch him in a puck battle to see how overmatched he was. He wasn't getting better in the NHL in that regard, so he needed to go to the AHL. Full stop. I don't even think it's worth debating at this point.

Yes, you can argue that Ward's handling of Baertschi wasn't amazing, but he did do well for several other players. I also think Ward is gone because he didn't see things the same way as management or Hartley's coaching staff, which is why Huska is now here despite solid results from Ward.

And then there's his camp this year where he clearly worked on everything that was asked of him and looked ready to step into the NHL, but now is caught in a numbers game. I don't think management expected the camp to be so competitive and see so many guys ready to make the jump. I think Treliving and co. now realize that they need to make some room throughout the season to get some of these players up (my money is on Baertschi, Granlund, and either Jooris or Ferland). You can see as much through his comments to the media this afternoon. I also honestly believe Sven could have been better offensively and might need time in the AHL to combine his newly found defensive and physical game with his offensive game. When that happens he's on the roster full time, no doubt in my mind, but he needs to show it and didn't show enough of that in camp. I was honestly worried about Sven's future before this camp, but now I know it's just a matter of time for him.

I agree that his feelings about the demotion shouldn't be analyzed too closely. If he's disappointed it's probably for good reasons, but he needs to be given a kind hand that says, "hey kid, you're really close, and when it comes together you're going to be here permanently." But they can't because of the way he was handled when he first came into the league. They needed to break down his ego a little to be able to teach him, and now that he's getting it they can't give him too much to inflate the ego again. I think they still like Sven but need to see a larger sample size to be sure he's really taken it to heart and made a permanent change to his game.

All in all, I think Sven or Granlund are on this team full time by the 20 game mark. Whoever players better will get the call up, so it's still up to Sven to continue working hard.