[News] Darren Dreger: "I’m confused by the direction of the Calgary Flames."

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What was their record in those 1-goal games? Something like 25-24, wasn't it? Just about what you'd expect. The only unusual thing was that there were so many of those games.

The team was bad because it got blown out (or shut out) a lot more often than it blew out or shut out the opposition. In the modern NHL, however, those kinds of games usually only happen when one team or the other gets thrown off its game plan. It's the close games that are every club's bread and butter, and the Flames' record showed that they were approaching those games with the right preparation and work ethic. I think that's a hopeful sign for the future, even if they should take a step backwards this year.

Yup. Hard work and playing a good system will get you into the one goal games. Skill will help you win those one goal games. The Flames didn't have enough of that last year, but it is coming.

The Oilers might have a lot of skill, but they don't emphasize the hard work that will put them into a position where their skill will allow them to win. That speaks to a lack of leadership and direction like I mentioned before.

Dreger doesn't get that, and I actually find it a bit mind-boggling. For someone that has been around the league this long, you'd think he would understand how hockey works.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Maybe he's heard that the Flames are looking for possibly a veteran defenseman to shore up the blue line as he was making reference to the Flames looking at defensemen? Either way I don't see the uproar as we all know the guy is an Oilers fan and just saying a few nice things about the Flames as he did probably pains him.

Another thing Dreger is missing is that all young teams in the middle of a rebuild need veteran players that can teach the young guys the proper way to not only play the game, but also how to 'play' it off the ice.

Wideman might be paid way to much on the ice, but going by what Bennett said of how Wideman took him under his wing 'off' the ice, I would go out on a limb and say the contract is worth it.

If the Flames management feel that they need to fill an organizational need by adding a veteran presence to solidify not only the roster, but the locker room and everything that goes along with that, good for them. I certainly wouldn't trust Dreger to understand anything about that.

Oil Stain is right. There were a lot of free agents available to pickup for a team with deep pockets and a low salary cap. The Flames instead choose not to do that, but instead want to focus on the rebuild. Its obvious that they are happy with the current status, and want to just keep building.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Yep. If culture was more imprtant than talent, the Coyotes and Predators would be the flagship franchises in the NHL. That's what teams with great culture and coaching, but little elite talent, look like.

And people are kidding themselves if they think the players don't know the score. The Flames can easily afford to spend to the cap, but they're icing a team that barely makes the cap floor. The players undestand why. They're playing to win every game, but they know management is not icing the best lineup it can.

For every Coyotes and Predators example, I can supply several examples of teams where there is plenty of talent but horrible culture and work ethic surrounding them, dropping their odds of ever competing for a cup. Think Washington, Toronto, Winnipeg, and Edmonton. Heck, I would even include San Jose, Philadelphia, and to a lesser extent Pittsburgh for their lack of a quality system to give their talent the best chance possible of winning. Culture and work ethic matter a lot more than pure talent, but you definitely need both.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

For every Coyotes and Predators example, I can supply several examples of teams where there is plenty of talent but horrible culture and work ethic surrounding them, dropping their odds of ever competing for a cup. Think Washington, Toronto, Winnipeg, and Edmonton. Heck, I would even include San Jose, Philadelphia, and to a lesser extent Pittsburgh for their lack of a quality system to give their talent the best chance possible of winning. Culture and work ethic matter a lot more than pure talent, but you definitely need both.

What about Chicago? With the terrible trio of Bell, Calder and Arnason. They were a perpetual blackhole of culture, entitlement, and suck.

Lo and behold the organization drafts elite players and that culture turns around quick enough.

The impact of "culture" is just vastly overrated by fans. The best players win. Culture helps at the margins between the best but either you're good or you're bad. ANd what decides that is how much talent is on the roster, not how often there's a team potluck on the rare off weekend.

The reason Edmonton is terrible is because they are terrible. They have crappy players and have given roster spots to players before earning it. Nothing to do with winning or losing culture.

What's critical is drafting more elite talent. We have some, we need more, things are falling into place. Lets just all celebrate some broken eggs this season. They omelette will be seasoned nicely in a couple years.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Azure

Another thing Dreger is missing is that all young teams in the middle of a rebuild need veteran players that can teach the young guys the proper way to not only play the game, but also how to 'play' it off the ice.

Wideman might be paid way to much on the ice, but going by what Bennett said of how Wideman took him under his wing 'off' the ice, I would go out on a limb and say the contract is worth it.

If the Flames management feel that they need to fill an organizational need by adding a veteran presence to solidify not only the roster, but the locker room and everything that goes along with that, good for them. I certainly wouldn't trust Dreger to understand anything about that.

Oil Stain is right. There were a lot of free agents available to pickup for a team with deep pockets and a low salary cap. The Flames instead choose not to do that, but instead want to focus on the rebuild. Its obvious that they are happy with the current status, and want to just keep building.

Again, look at chicago.

2006-07 season last in the division with 71 points, behind freaking Columbus.

Young players

Keith
Sharp
Byfuglien

2007-08

Add Toews and Kane to the lineup jump to 88 points.

2008-09

104 points.

In three seasons they went from losing culture to league elite.

Very little mentoring or veteran presence was needed. What happened is that elite players were drafted and added to the lineup along with excellent young depth players.

The culture of a team is elastic. It changes when the roster and lineup change. What changes culture the most is just plain old good players and well put together roster. Years of being in the perpetual basement literally meant for squat as Chicago went from 71 to 104 points in three freaking seasons.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Again, look at chicago.

2006-07 season last in the division with 71 points, behind freaking Columbus.

Young players

Keith
Sharp
Byfuglien

2007-08

Add Toews and Kane to the lineup jump to 88 points.

2008-09

104 points.

In three seasons they went from losing culture to league elite.

Very little mentoring or veteran presence was needed. What happened is that elite players were drafted and added to the lineup along with excellent young depth players.

The culture of a team is elastic. It changes when the roster and lineup change. What changes culture the most is just plain old good players and well put together roster. Years of being in the perpetual basement literally meant for squat as Chicago went from 71 to 104 points in three freaking seasons.

Besides:

Ladd, Versteeg, Bolland, Sharp, Hossa, Ruutu...

They had tons of vets and tons of talent. The new coach was also a significant change. There were LOTS of reasons that they put it all together.

It takes a lot of things working well for a team to be successful. When people try and point to this or that aspect of a team to make a point, it is kind of silly.

I also think it's funny that several of the posters who always argued the loudest about the Flames' 'poisoned' culture prior to the rebuild, are the same people arguing that culture isn't important now.

Here's a thought: having talent, and having a good culture and chemistry are both important!

[CliffFletcher]

True elite players change the culture of a team. The culture of the Hawks didn't matter to Toews because he shaped the culture himself. As long as you don't have a bunch of entitled veterans in the lineup (and the Flames don't anymore), the young players who are winners with elite talent will define the culture of the team.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I was recently debating with an Oiler fan about which team is further along in the rebuild - the 8-year, rebuild 3.0 of the Oilers, or the Flames in year 2 of their rebuild.

One interesting way to look at it is to compare the top 10 young players - not just prospects, but all young players - in a 6 forward, 3 defense, and 1 goalie format. The foundation of a future core, if you will.

Though I was keeping it to 25 and under, I included Perron and Backlund because it seemed appropriate for both teams. Also, they aren't ranked in any kind of best to worst, I simply tried to match roles and skill sets. So my top 10 young players are:

Oilers..........Flames
Hall.............Monahan
RNH............Gaudreau
Eberle.........Baertschi
Draisaitl......Bennett
Perron.........Backlund
Yakupov......Poirier

Schultz........Brodie
Nurse..........Wotherspoon
Morincin......Sieloff

Brossoit......Ortio (I would pick Gillies, but CP has spoken)

If you look at the forwards closely, it is actually pretty even - there are some advantages for both teams there. Having said that, I like our strength up the middle more, which I think is key.

On D, the Oilers have more upside, but the Flames D can actually play defense. Advantage Oilers for now, but well have to wait and see how everyone develops.

In goal, no contest.

Pretty even overall for the top 10. However, the Flames have a couple other big advantages:

1) leadership and culture. Giordano. That is all.

2) depth. While the first 6 forwards look pretty good for both teams, the Flames can follow that up with a 2nd 6 consisting of: Colborne, Granlund, Bouma, Ferland, Arnold and Jooris. The Oilers have absolutely no answer to that (Joensuu, Lander, Pitlick, ?).

In fact, you can throw out another 6 (Reinhart, Klimchuk, Agostino, Knight, Wolf and Van Brabant) and the Oilers 2nd group wouldn't even compare to that.

So, while the top young Oilers might be further along than the top young Flames, I think the Flames overall are much closer to having enough pieces in place to start moving forward.

The actual ability to move forward is still a little ways away, as Bennett, Gaudreau, Monahan etc are still too young. But the overall blueprint favours the Flames by a fair margin, IMO.

I would not be at all surprised to see the Flames back in the playoffs first.

I think what is missing here is team culture or identity which can transcend generations of players.

My hope is that Calgary becomes the definition of hard working hockey team for many many years.

Flames have a good start to that, Oilers look like the kind of team that will peak and will be in the playoffs for a 5-6 year stretch, never get past the first round, and will have good performances from players but will never craft a championship team.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

True elite players change the culture of a team. The culture of the Hawks didn't matter to Toews because he shaped the culture himself. As long as you don't have a bunch of entitled veterans in the lineup (and the Flames don't anymore), the young players who are winners with elite talent will define the culture of the team.

I should have just quoted you and save myself a bunch of typing.

[Tinordi]

I don't disagree.

But the winning culture is a crutch fans use who don't want to accept that losing may be better in the long run. I'm not saying lose on purpose. I'm saying put losing in perspective. Not every move needs to be made to make the team better now.

Clearly management agrees.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

True elite players change the culture of a team. The culture of the Hawks didn't matter to Toews because he shaped the culture himself. As long as you don't have a bunch of entitled veterans in the lineup (and the Flames don't anymore), the young players who are winners with elite talent will define the culture of the team.

Kind of like how Taylor Hall has defined the culture of his team

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

True elite players change the culture of a team. The culture of the Hawks didn't matter to Toews because he shaped the culture himself. As long as you don't have a bunch of entitled veterans in the lineup (and the Flames don't anymore), the young players who are winners with elite talent will define the culture of the team.

I agree that certain (special) players can change/create the culture themselves. But that does not apply to all, or even many, talented players.

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I don't disagree.

But the winning culture is a crutch fans use who don't want to accept that losing may be better in the long run. I'm not saying lose on purpose. I'm saying put losing in perspective. Not every move needs to be made to make the team better now.

Clearly management agrees.

Completely agree.

[Enoch Root]

Another point here...

Certain players like Toews can change the culture, but once you have a bad culture cough*Edmonton*cough, it can be extremely difficult to right the ship - even when those special players are added.

So I think building and maintaining a good culture is critical.

I also think that acquiring talent - and having some of your best players also be the leaders of that culture - is even more important.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

Another thing Dreger is missing is that all young teams in the middle of a rebuild need veteran players that can teach the young guys the proper way to not only play the game, but also how to 'play' it off the ice.



Wideman might be paid way to much on the ice, but going by what Bennett said of how Wideman took him under his wing 'off' the ice, I would go out on a limb and say the contract is worth it.



If the Flames management feel that they need to fill an organizational need by adding a veteran presence to solidify not only the roster, but the locker room and everything that goes along with that, good for them. I certainly wouldn't trust Dreger to understand anything about that.



Oil Stain is right. There were a lot of free agents available to pickup for a team with deep pockets and a low salary cap. The Flames instead choose not to do that, but instead want to focus on the rebuild. Its obvious that they are happy with the current status, and want to just keep building.

Agreed you need some vets to teach the kids the right way to perform, but a) you need the right vets, not sure everyone on this team qualifies, and b) you actually need some kids on the team to teach. Besides Monohan and Gaudreau who else are they teaching?

[Arya Stark]

After today's cuts, I am also confused.

[Hackey]

While leadership and culture is important it's so overblown on here. You can find culture and leadership far easier than you find elite talent. Do we have a Kopitar, Doughty and Quick? Do we have a Brown, Williams, Gaborik, Carter, Richards? Most our prospects have proven less than Toffoli, Pearson, Muzzin, Voynov. While some of our players might turn into these guys we still have a long ways to go. We need way more top level talent. This idea that were ready to start ascending the standings I just don't buy. Maybe in a couple years but as of now this team is barely crawling yet. Let's have some patience.