2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Personally, I think this team needs to find a way to keep at least 2 of these guys up. Part of rebuilding is knowing when you have to make room for the young guys, and I think at the very least Baertschi and Ferland would benefit more from being in the NHL than in the AHL. Gaudreau clearly has the skills as well, but I can see a case for him spending some time in the minors to acclimatize himself to the pro game and it's schedule. Granlund is also waiting in the wings, and he was perhaps the most ready out of all of these guys.

That's 4 players. I think we are that stage where if we don't start making room for a few of these guys, it will start impeding our long-term progress. You always need to have more players than rosters spots because of injuries, but I think the time is here where you start at least exploring the idea of making some room via trades (or trading some of these assets to shift talent to RW or D).

Disagree.

Actually, to be more precise, I agree with the sentiment, but disagree with the timing. Now is not the time for what you are suggesting.

At some point, yes, you have to find ways to get them into the lineup. The danger is that that is a one-way street - no backtracking, no do-overs, nothing. Once you start shipping the vets out to make room for the kids, you are left with just the kids.

Therefore, you have to be absolutely certain that they are ready. You have to err on the side of caution. And that is why it is best to over-ripen them. Nothing bad can come of that. But plenty bad can come from rushing the process.

Patience.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

To be more specific: We don't have much talent and we need to score goals, so let's put our most talented prospects in the NHL because they can score is the approach I'm dubious of. If you project a guy to be a top-six forward who is going to get a lot of ice time, you want him to have a good all-around game. If Gaudreau has room to grow his game without the puck, the AHL is probably the best place to do it. And if he improves that part of his game quickly in the AHL and is back in the NHL in 30 games, then fine.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, Gaudreau's game without the puck is top 3-4 on this teams forwards. and he's top 2 for understanding the game and where to be in all situations.

Open your eyes and watch his game not just his highlight real goals. there's a reason he was college hockeys top +/- player over the last 2 seasons..hint, it wasn't just offense or his teammates.

[djsFlames]

There's arguably less of a gap between NCAA and pro than the CHL and pro, and Johnny was the best player in the NCAA in a decade or more, and well beyond that league. Monahan needed 0 AHL games to make the transition from the OHL to NHL as an every day player who could produce in the league, just as I think Johnny is as good and can do just the same.

If the AHL were a necessity for every player then we might as well ship Monahan down to Addy to get an "acceptable" amount of AHL games under his belt. Well no, because not all players need it. Johnny back checks better than the vast majority of kids that come in to compete for spots, and certainly better than Sven. It's only a small weakness in his game, and not nearly as big of a weakness as it is with other prospects. I think that area of his game can be brought up to snuff under the Flames coaching staff just fine. He's so smart on the ice already, and shows that he's willing to learn, that it will hardly take any time at all to catch on. I mean the kid is already stripping the puck off opposing players nightly, perhaps even more than our other experienced forwards.

[GoJetsGo]

I know it was said one page back, but it's worth repeating.

There's a difference between an 18 or 19 year old coming out of the CHL trying to make this jump and Gaudreau, who's now 21.

Age is just a number, but Gaudreau does have several years of maturing under his belt that go along with what we're seeing on the ice. The fact that he thinks the game at such a high level and those additional years do make a difference.

[BChockeyJunkie]

What part of his game needs to be fine tuned? playing alot of games? he will be playing multiple games in both leagues. I wouldnt rush a young kid if your NHL is so talented that they have to find 4th line time and play with players that are unskilled.

If its cause he's too small, i think there are more goons flying around the AHL than the NHL. He's more likely to get a random elbow to the chin by some 30+ yr old journeyman from an AHL team.

The sad part is that both answers are potentially correct, and now matter the outcome it will be thread after thread of I told you so.... ugh

[cannon7]

Many posters appear to be afraid that the Flames will make the same mistakes that the Oilers have with their young players. The difference here is that the Flames have a group of solid veterans such as Giordano, Hudler, Glencross, Stajan, etc. who are character guys and will be a positive influence on a young player. In Edmonton, by contrast, they had fewer veterans of that calibre and instead plugged these young players into top-line roles and let them sink or swim. To those prospects' credit, namely Hall, Eberle and RNH -- they've done OK despite a vacuum of veteran leadership. Only in the past year or so have the Oilers consciously addressed that problem (Ference).

[DropIt]

Would be very dissapointed if Baertschi is sent down. He and JG deserve the spots

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I know it was said one page back, but it's worth repeating.

There's a difference between an 18 or 19 year old coming out of the CHL trying to make this jump and Gaudreau, who's now 21.

Age is just a number, but Gaudreau does have several years of maturing under his belt that go along with what we're seeing on the ice. The fact that he thinks the game at such a high level and those additional years do make a difference.

His play away from the puck is what Treliving and the coaching staff are focused on. We know the offence is there.

[djsFlames]

Baertschi's camp has been luke warm, but not outstanding, as the guys on the big show said earlier. I don't see what he's done to take a spot from a vet. And I don't see what the Flames need that Sven can address (now). There's plenty of guys already penciled in the roster that can bring what Sven can bring, but area also more developed defensively and are stronger on the boards. Sven is getting there, but hasn't surpassed many of the regulars. But on the other hand, there are few that can bring the skill set and abilities that Johnny can provide, particularly on the PP.

At this point, Gaudreau offers the team more than Sven. However, despite his okay camp, I would take Baertschi over someone like Setoguchi, at least from what I've seen from both.

[Nme-Territory]

Ideally, the Joneses and Setoguchies on the roster raise their stock while playing for the big club and are dealt for other assets to make room for the JGs and Svens. It's better asset management than letting such players slip away for free. And if they don't prove themselves, at least it can be said that they had a shot.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'm going to go out on a limb here, Gaudreau's game without the puck is top 3-4 on this teams forwards. and he's top 2 for understanding the game and where to be in all situations.

Open your eyes and watch his game not just his highlight real goals. there's a reason he was college hockeys top +/- player over the last 2 seasons..hint, it wasn't just offense or his teammates.

Then I guess you've watched Gaudreau closer than his boss.

Summary by sureLoss:

Johnny has been okay

still feeling his way around

last night there was up and downs in his game

still learning what to do without the puck

getting lot of opportunities in offensive situations

can't help but be excited about his offence

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Many posters appear to be afraid that the Flames will make the same mistakes that the Oilers have with their young players. The difference here is that the Flames have a group of solid veterans such as Giordano, Hudler, Glencross, Stajan, etc. who are character guys and will be a positive influence on a young player. In Edmonton, by contrast, they had fewer veterans of that calibre and instead plugged these young players into top-line roles and let them sink or swim. To those prospects' credit, namely Hall, Eberle and RNH -- they've done OK despite a vacuum of veteran leadership. Only in the past year or so have the Oilers consciously addressed that problem (Ference).

This... the whole problem with what happens in Edmonton is not that these guys played in the NHL. Its that they all were immediately thrust into top line roles and were completely over-matched.

Hall/Eberle/RNH aren't ruined. For the most part, they've developed fine. They aren't the reason the Oilers are no good. Its the rest of the team (garbage defense, no depth, overmatched coach).


EDIT: I also feel the 'its ok to send everyone down crowd' is mainly doing it to defend management in advance and its unwarranted. The team is going to keep some young guys.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I also feel the 'its ok to send everyone down crowd' is mainly doing it to defend management in advance and its unwarranted.

I can't speak for anyone else but not on my part... I legitimately feel that it would be best in the longterm for the team to ripen it's prospects on the vine. I can't help but feel that despite all the ample evidence that Edmonton Is No Good the 'rookies now!' crowd is essentially advocating that we copy them. I get the desire for the instant gratification that comes from seeing "the future" now but we have to be patient. We can be more like the Oilers or we can be more like the Red Wings... I'd rather be more like the Red Wings.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I can't speak for anyone else but not on my part... I legitimately feel that it would be best in the longterm for the team to ripen it's prospects on the vine. I can't help but feel that despite all the ample evidence that Edmonton Is No Good the 'rookies now!' crowd is essentially advocating that we copy them. I get the desire for the instant gratification that comes from seeing "the future" now but we have to be patient. We can be more like the Oilers or we can be more like the Red Wings... I'd rather be more like the Red Wings.

There's a difference between drafting a guy and basically giving him the 2nd line centre spot before training camp than playing Gaudreau this year on the power play and in sheltered minutes even strength.

Again - the rushing guys isn't the Oilers big problem. Its the garbage around those guys and the fact they have to do all the scoring and deal with all the toughest matchups.

The last few Stanley Cup teams 'rushed' guys - Doughty with the Kings, Kane with the Blackhawks, Seguin with the Bruins. Having a 20/21 year old guy play in the NHL isn't rushing anyone.

[Stay Golden]

Whats the roster down to now. Are they under 30 now?

[heep223]

Simple - do what they did with Monahan. Give JG a few (5-10) games in the big show to start the year. If he steps up then great, if not that's ok send him to Addy. And yes I know Monny had the 9 game rule and JG does not but I don't see a reason why we couldn't do the same .

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Dion

His play away from the puck is what Treliving and the coaching staff are focused on. We know the offence is there.

Finding it tough to see how this was a response to anything mentioned in my post that you quoted.

That aside, I think that side of his game has actually stood out while he spent the first few games going scoreless. He's been hard on the back-check, has stolen a few pucks on takeaways and seems to be getting his positioning down.

Pretty obvious that's been a focus, as he talked about it (his play away from the puck and positioning) in his interview yesterday.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

I won't be nonplussed if the Flames assign Gaudreau to the AHL.

Gaudreau being Gaudreau, he will have forced them to call him back up within a few weeks

You're absolutely right. Johnny doesn't seem to be a player whose confidence would be damaged by a demotion. He knows the score, and he believes in himself. We'll see the kid before too long, regardless.

I feel uneasy about it all because Gaudreau, Bennett, Baertschi, Granlund, Ferland & Jooris have all made a case for themselves. Seems unfair to only award 1 or 2 of them with roster spots. It's also not sensible to deal away a load of veterans. Suppose it's a good problem to have.

[TheGrimm]

I'm not sure anyone here is stating that all of Granlund, Ferland, Gaudreau, Bennett, Baertschi and Reinhart should be sticking with the NHL this year. The scary thing to me is the fact that there is a distinct possibility that come opening night, NONE of them might be in the line up.

I think Granlund is just plain ready, we know what he can do in the AHL and he played fantastic in hist stint in the NHL last year. He can play wing if required, he's smart without the puck and I actually think he has the potential to be a more consistent player in this league than his brother.

The other players in that grouping I can see arguments both ways. I personally think Ferland is ready and needed but I know another partial or full season in the AHL wouldn't hurt him.

Reinhart, I am beginning to wonder if he has more value to us as a trade asset to a team like Buffalo or the Isles than he has here. He's pretty much buried in depth here and I am personally not sure he's going to be able to usurp anyone on this team going forward.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

I feel uneasy about it all because Gaudreau, Bennett, Baertschi, Granlund, Ferland & Jooris have all made a case for themselves. Seems unfair to only award 1 or 2 of them with roster spots. It's also not sensible to deal away a load of veterans. Suppose it's a good problem to have.

Yeah I think this is the problem that good teams that build from within have (which has historically been a foreign concept for us)! Let's enjoy it!