Devin Setoguchi

[the-rasta-masta]

I was pretty shocked to find out the Setoguchi has the most career goals of any Flame on the roster this year. I would never have guessed that.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

I was pretty shocked to find out the Setoguchi has the most career goals of any Flame on the roster this year. I would never have guessed that.

That is surprising. Why hasn't he been cut yet?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by saillias

Am I the only one who thought Jones was actually a pretty effective player for us last year? His main problem is being injury prone, whenever he got a few games in a row in, he started playing physical, scoring goals etc.

Originally Posted by Tinordi

No you're not alone. There wasn't a single forward who had tougher assignments last year than Jones. He started most of his shifts in the defensive zone and saw the toughest competition of any Flame. Saying that guys like Ferland who have shown nothing should waltz in and replace that kind of player is simply baseless.

Add me to that list

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Setoguchi is supposedly motivated and ready to work his butt off to rejuvenate his career. We haven't seen that on the ice. What we have seen is last years Setoguchi throwing blind passes all over the ice generating turnover after turnover.

Unlike many of the vets Setoguchi should be doing his best to make a great impression in preseason. So far he hasn't made the team IMO.

It is also remarkable how many people are making excuses for him. He used to be a good scorer. It is just the preseason. He is just a temporary fill in to shelter the kids. All of that is true, but it doesn't excuse having last seasons Setoguchi on the ice. And so far in the preseason he looks like last seasons Setoguchi.

No one is making excuses for him, and he most definitely should (and will) have to earn a spot on the team.

However, expecting him to simply come in and be immediately great and impactful, completely reversing last season's struggles, seems like somewhat lofty expectations, no?

He has proven in the past that he can play. He says he is motivated.

Giving him some time to prove that, and re-establish himself and his career doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, especially since a) we have absolutely nothing to lose, and b) a lot to gain.

[DoubleF]

Even if you don't believe in Setoguchi, why not consider trusting in Hartley (development and culture) and Treliving (business)?

[Lanny_McDonald]

nvm, not worth it.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Even if you don't believe in Setoguchi, why not consider trusting in Hartley (development and culture) and Treliving (business)?

All that trust stuff worked so well in Edmonton?

Development and culture are not that meaningful for Hartley's bottom 6 and bottom 4 finishes.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

All that trust stuff worked so well in Edmonton?

Development and culture are not that meaningful for Hartley's bottom 6 and bottom 4 finishes.

What does that even mean?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Most of those guys still need a lot of seasoning in the AHL. Any that are ready are capable of taking the job away. And, as Enoch noted, it is very likely that Setoguchi ultimately loses his job to one of them regardless.

.

All things being equal a player on a one-way contract will stay in the NHL and the two-way contracts get sent to the minors.

The quality guys that are 22-24 that the Flames have collected can not afford any more seasoning in the AHL. They have a limited window to make it to the Flames. The Flames goal is not to develop a great AHL team.

Other than Glencross are there any guys that need more AHL seasoning to became quality NHL forwards after their 25th Birthday.

I would rather the Flames find out as much as they can about these guys at the NHL level before they get lost in the system and show up on some other NHL team.

For example Knight just turned 24. Is he just in the AHL to provide cover for the younger guys? If he doesn't get a shot with the Flames this year why did the Flames bother to sign him. Next year he will be behind Bennett and possibly Arnold and not likely but possibly Jankowski as well.

Why give his tryout time to Setoguchi?

[Enoch Root]

So your argument is that these guys should be given NHL spots because of their age and the fact that they are running out of time to make it on merit?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Even if you don't believe in Setoguchi, why not consider trusting in Hartley (development and culture) and Treliving (business)?

Setoguchi has played for some pretty well-respected coaches in his career. Doesn't seem like it helped much.

[Textcritic]

What a weird post.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

All things being equal a player on a one-way contract will stay in the NHL and the two-way contracts get sent to the minors.

The quality guys that are 22-24 that the Flames have collected can not afford any more seasoning in the AHL. They have a limited window to make it to the Flames. The Flames goal is not to develop a great AHL team.

I'm not at all sure what this means. Why can players in this range "not afford any more seasoning in AHL"? Is this arbitrarily a product of age?

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Other than Glencross are there any guys that need more AHL seasoning to became quality NHL forwards after their 25th Birthday.

Not many. But this is not so because something magical happens when a player turns 25. It is because the vast majority of players hit their developmental ceiling by this time. Of course—and this is something that you are repeatedly guilty of overlooking in almost any discussion it seems—all players DO NOT develop linearly at the same rate and along the same spectrum to arrive at the end of the same trajectory.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I would rather the Flames find out as much as they can about these guys at the NHL level before they get lost in the system and show up on some other NHL team.

How often does this actually happen? I think in the vast majority of these sorts of very rare instances, teams tend to be no worse off for losing a prospect by virtue of overcrowding in the first place. This usually only happens when a team has too many prospects competing for a limited number of NHL roster spots.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

For example Knight just turned 24. Is he just in the AHL to provide cover for the younger guys? If he doesn't get a shot with the Flames this year why did the Flames bother to sign him. Next year he will be behind Bennett and possibly Arnold and not likely but possibly Jankowski as well.

Why give his tryout time to Setoguchi?

Knight is an AHL player until he proves otherwise. Has he proved anything to this point that might suggest he is even a better option this season than Setoguchi? If he doesn't look ready to play in the NHL, then chances are high that it is a bad idea to have him playing in the NHL, and to this point, Knight does not really look ready. Setoguchi is a known commodity. He HAS played and succeeded at the NHL level, and if this is a choice to be made between players (and I am not at all sure that it is), then Setoguchi's NHL experience trumps Knight's performance.

The bottom line is that only a handful of the Flames prospects will be NHL players, and an even smaller number will remain with the Flames. Knight may very well be a product of overcrowding and a slower developmental trajectory, but this is because he is competing against OTHER prospects in the system, and not directly with seasoned veterans.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So your argument is that these guys should be given NHL spots because of their age and the fact that they are running out of time to make it on merit?

I think it is in the Flames best interest to give them all the opportunity possible to show that they have NHL level talent.

The Flames went and signed all of these guy to the max tryout contracts wiyh max signing bonuses as though they were 1st round picks.

If Hanowski, Knight, or Wolf or Agostino or Jooris (all on 2-way contracts) somehow are able to show that they are able to play at the NHL level in a 20+ games that would be far more valuable to the Flames in the long run.

The upside that they give to the Flames is a so much higher than if Setoguchi exceeds exceptions and puts in 20 goals.

The very best that Setoguchi gives the Flames is a second round pick at the trade deadline.


The Flames will most likely get exactly what the Leafs got for giving Mason Raymond a chance......... nothing.

The Leafs were in win now mode at the start of last season.... what is the Flames reasoning?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I think it is in the Flames best interest to give them all the opportunity possible to show that they have NHL level talent...

Do you not think that the coaches who are scrutinising the players on a daily basis can see this in training camp?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

...The Flames went and signed all of these guy to the max tryout contracts wiyh max signing bonuses as though they were 1st round picks.

—wait... What?!

[Street Pharmacist]

The Leafs got nothing fit Raymond because they thought they were making the playoffs. They certainly could have got something. That's a terrible comparison

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

...If Hanowski, Knight, or Wolf or Agostino or Jooris (all on 2-way contracts) somehow are able to show that they are able to play at the NHL level in a 20+ games that would be far more valuable to the Flames in the long run.

The upside that they give to the Flames is a so much higher than if Setoguchi exceeds exceptions and puts in 20 goals...

I don't see why this has to be an either or proposition. Why not both? Is it not both possible for one of the aforementioned prospects to prove their NHL worth this season AND for Setoguchi to exceed expectations?

At the end of the season, if Setoguchi disappoints and none of Hanowski, Knight, Wolf, Agostino or Jooris have played any games with the Flames, then what is lost?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't see why this has to be an either or proposition. Why not both? Is it not both possible for one of the aforementioned prospects to prove their NHL worth this season AND for Setoguchi to exceed expectations?

At the end of the season, if Setoguchi disappoints and none of Hanowski, Knight, Wolf, Agostino or Jooris have played any games with the Flames, then what is lost?

Ricardodw?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Setoguchi has played for some pretty well-respected coaches in his career. Doesn't seem like it helped much.

If it was as easy as that, Treliving is an idiot for snapping him up. I don't believe Treliving is an idiot. I believe in our management, team and culture.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm not on the side on completely giving up on Setoguchi yet. It's worth asking me the question again in December though.

On a side note, I can't read ricardo's posts without hearing them in Cartman's voice.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Do you not think that the coaches who are scrutinising the players on a daily basis can see this in training camp?

Really ?? You are going to say that the NHL brain thrust.... many former players... are infallible judges of NHL potential from observing practices and scrimmages and non-NHL games?

That is why the best longer term NHL player is always selected 1st in the draft and the NHL success rate is closely correlated to the draft?? NOT

Next you are going to tell me that coaches watching Giordano an a daily basis for years could tell he was not as good a hockey player as Bouwmeester and even if he was given the opportunity he would never ever be a #1 Defenseman.

You never really know how players will react in a game situation until you actually put them in game situations.


At the end of last season with Knight/Hankowski/Agostino/Van Brabant/Reinhart/Granlund rotating in the line-up replacing Stajan and Stempniak and Glencross the team did far better than the team did with the proven NHL players.

Is there some sort of artistic impression points that devalues these wins that I don't know about?