RIP You Love You Lose thread

[Hanna Sniper]

my opinion (which don't mean anything)

Just lock the threads and everyone be done with it.... horse is dead, leaving the corpse around is just waiting for someone else to run by and give it a big kick and then up come the defensive walls again.

But what do I know, I'm an idiot

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by photon

Lol not likely, I don't see how any sane person would think it would have be a landslide in favour.

Personally I'd appreciate it if you'd stop telling me what my thoughts and motivations are about something despite what I've actually said about my thoughts and motivations. If you want to know, ask me, but please don't tell me.

Admittedly, Landslide is a bit of Hyperbole on my part.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Sorry you find it insulting. It's just an observation after seeing how everything that's been going down and being dealt with these last few days.

Bottom line is, what happened is obviously an unpopular move by a majority of posters on the site. Not because of the content but how the decision was levied. And now we're in the midst of the fallout from it.

I take issue with any similar process in life when a decision was handed down they way it was here.

People would be riled up and P/O'ed if the Government asked if they should get rid of health care and the majority of opinion says no and they do it anyways.

Not that health care and the material in question are the same by any stretch, just using it as an example.

Let's revisit what happened here
- A question was raised
- The moderation team was unsure what to do
- We decided to engage the community for input
- A poll was added
- it was stated NUMEROUS times that the poll was not bnding
- it was also stated that this wasn't a case where majority would necessarily rule
- The moderation team looked at all the posts and the poll and made a decision collectively after a lot of discussion

We did exactly what we said we were going to do. You seem to be sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring that and in fact now making up stuff about what actually happened - going as far as to suggest that the moderation team conspired to create a poll to do the "dirty work".

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Let's revisit what happened here
- A question was raised
- The moderation team was unsure what to do
- We decided to engage the community for input
- A poll was added
- it was stated NUMEROUS times that the poll was not bnding
- it was also stated that this wasn't a case where majority would necessarily rule
- The moderation team looked at all the posts and the poll and made a decision collectively after a lot of discussion

We did exactly what we said we were going to do. You seem to be sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring that and in fact now making up stuff about what actually happened - going as far as to suggest that the moderation team conspired to create a poll to do the "dirty work".

To the bolded: Come on! You have to admit if the vote went that way your decision was going to be a heck of a lot more easier to make. So yes, an easy assumption to make in direct relation to the results wouldn't you say?
The dirty work would have been done and this fallout would have been a heck of a lot less hostile all around.

Holy moly, talk about sticking fingers in ears. I responded to your post about WHY people are choked and how you cannot see why the don't get past it. In regards to how most people would see how it appears disengenuous. Why should they get past it? I said.
Binding or not, allowing a vote implies some form of involvement in the decision process. And whether you like it or not, some people would see a poll like that as a waste of their time and effort when their input ultimately did not matter in the decision making process. Which inherently creates unrest and anger...not anger, frustration.

So yeah, you did what you said you were going to do. Not the issue, it's HOW you did it. you can write it in plain childrens literature in a pop up book and make it plain as day and people will still not like it.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

To the bolded: Come on! You have to admit if the vote went that way your decision was going to be a heck of a lot more easier to make. So yes, an easy assumption to make in direct relation to the results wouldn't you say?

No I don't think it is an easy assumption to make given that we framed the poll in very specific ways of how it would be used. There is no truth to what you are accusing us of. As Photon on - please don't tell us why we did something. We know why we did it.

Originally Posted by dammage79

Holy moly, talk about sticking fingers in ears. I responded to your post about WHY people are choked and how you cannot see why the don't get past it. In regards to how most people would see how it appears disengenuous. Why should they get past it? I said.
Binding or not, allowing a vote implies some form of involvement in the decision process. And whether you like it or not, some people would see a poll like that as a waste of their time and effort when their input ultimately did not matter in the decision making process. Which inherently creates unrest and anger...not anger, frustration.

This is what you don't get. The poll WAS considered as part of the decision. PART. We wouldn't have done it if it wasn't going to be factored in.

Originally Posted by dammage79

So yeah, you did what you said you were going to do. Not the issue, it's HOW you did it. you can write it in plain childrens literature in a pop up book and make it plain as day and people will still not like it.

Fine. Let's just remember that in this instance we actually took many steps to engage the community more deeply than we've ever done before. Why? Because it was important. It may not have played out how you personally wanted - but frankly I think your reaction is the exception - not the norm.At least in terms of the intensity of it.

[Regulator75]

Even Susan Powter thinks this thread has jumped the shark.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

This is what you don't get. The poll WAS considered as part of the decision. PART. We wouldn't have done it if it wasn't going to be factored in.

The biggest mistake I clearly made was adding a poll because even though we stated NUMEROUS times that it was not binding, and that it would not be the sole factor in any decision - some people can't seem to get past it.

I get it. So in turn, kindly do not tell me what I understand and do not understand.

You considered a majority vote only PART of the judgement. But did not consider that most would take issue with the outcome. And people took issue with it. Hence the fall out. Because when so many people vote one way and the governing body goes another, you're going to raise some ire. Add to that the admission of you making a mistake of adding the poll (clearly).


I am being critical of your methods, it was a big decision to make. And not an easy one at all. And I'm not making it any easier for you as are many others. I would push the same observations in my RL community as well.

I think it is fair the people question and debate the decision making process, even add some criticism and assumptions. It's how greater understanding comes about. And maybe some learning on your end as well.

Dictatorships, Democracies or any other means where few people make rules and guidlelines on a group of people should always be questioned and prodded.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I have no idea how you managed to spin the fact that women take more than their fair share of the best and highest paying jobs as that they could be underpaid.

If a man and a women have the same job and same experience they should be paid equally. If women tend to work for the higher paying companies in a greater proportion then they should be higher paid on average in the stats. If this is not reflected in the stats it's suggests that women are not recieving the same pay for the same jobs.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I get it. So in turn, kindly do not tell me what I understand and do not understand.

You considered a majority vote only PART of the judgement. But did not consider that most would take issue with the outcome. And people took issue with it. Hence the fall out. Because when so many people vote one way and the governing body goes another, you're going to raise some ire. Add to that the admission of you making a mistake of adding the poll (clearly).


I am being critical of your methods, it was a big decision to make. And not an easy one at all. And I'm not making it any easier for you as are many others. I would push the same observations in my RL community as well.

I think it is fair the people question and debate the decision making process, even add some criticism and assumptions. It's how greater understanding comes about. And maybe some learning on your end as well.

Dictatorships, Democracies or any other means where few people make rules and guidlelines on a group of people should always be questioned and prodded.

You realize you are advocating for no consultation of the membership and increased power to the vocal minority.

If the thread is just deleted one day without consultation people would complain
If the thread was deleted with just the thread but no poll people would blame the vocal minority.
Instead a poll is done to try to see what the silent group would like.

Then they get slammed for making the decision. The fallout of this decision will just lead to less consultation of the membership. This is unfortunate as the way this decision was made should be the model for changing policies on this type of community.

All this for a thread which no one can state the benefit of.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I get it. So in turn, kindly do not tell me what I understand and do not understand.

You considered a majority vote only PART of the judgement. But did not consider that most would take issue with the outcome. And people took issue with it. Hence the fall out. Because when so many people vote one way and the governing body goes another, you're going to raise some ire. Add to that the admission of you making a mistake of adding the poll (clearly).

1. I don't think you can say with any certainty that "most" are taking issue with the outcome. What I see are a number of very loud voices in this thread, but that doesn't mean that MOST feel the way you do.
2. I don't actually think adding the poll was a mistake. I was making a point through sarcasm.

Originally Posted by dammage79

I am being critical of your methods, it was a big decision to make. And not an easy one at all. And I'm not making it any easier for you as are many others. I would push the same observations in my RL community as well.

I think it is fair the people question and debate the decision making process, even add some criticism and assumptions. It's how greater understanding comes about. And maybe some learning on your end as well.

I'm actually really comfortable and proud of both how we engaged the community and the decision we reached. So I'm good thanks.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

1. I don't think you can say with any certainty that "most" are taking issue with the outcome. What I see are a number of very loud voices in this thread, but that doesn't mean that MOST feel the way you do.
2. I don't actually think adding the poll was a mistake. I was making a point through sarcasm.




I'm actually really comfortable and proud of both how we engaged the community and the decision we reached. So I'm good thanks.

Well, This is the first time I've posted in this thread and made my POV clear in about six posts in the first three or four pages of the other and left it alone so there's that. Call me a loud voice if you like but perhaps go through both the decision thread and this one and actually do a mental count of how many understand why, but disagree with the how of the situation. Pretty heavy towards the way I've been posting about it. Seriously, go take a look.

All I've been saying is the numbers don't lie and it was an unpopular move, in an effort to clarify why people "just don't get past it".

On a personal level, I think censorship is wrong, and this a case of censorship. It's also a limitation on freedom of choice in an area where it was freely utilized for many years before (it is irrelevant to constantly point out you can get the material elsewhere as it was here for so darned long). I don't think it's progression towards meeting the end goal at all, In fact I feel it's regressive.

But not once have I stated that I do not support the premise behind why you did what you guys did. Because the issue is real, and out of hand. Namely because I think the age demoraphic is a lot younger than most people think and a few are simply not mature enough to handle something like that.

If you guys had said "we feel this community in all it's growth would fare better under a G rating" I would have been fully on board with that. More inclusive for every one and a much easier way and reason to delete said thread.

But thats just me.

All this "Loud Talking" by me is more to the point of the effectiveness of the decision. It was not effective to add the poll, and I don't feel you're going to meet the aim of what you're trying to do by removing it.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Well, This is the first time I've posted in this thread and made my POV clear in about six posts in the first three or four pages of the other and left it alone so there's that. Call me a loud voice if you like but perhaps go through both the decision thread and this one and actually do a mental count of how many understand why, but disagree with the how of the situation. Pretty heavy towards the way I've been posting about it. Seriously, go take a look.

it.

Doing a count based on posts in this thread would be a highly ineffective way of gauging reaction to the decision and how it was made. It would only provide some idea of how a select few actually posting in this thread feel

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Dictatorships, Democracies or any other means where few people make rules and guidlelines on a group of people should always be questioned and prodded.

Oh dear lord…they aren't a government, you dork. What they do has no direct impact on your life other than how you waste your time in-between work.

I like to be here a lot, but it seems like some people take this site waaaay too seriously, like any change to it is akin to someone running over their dog.

When you're this upset about the policies of an internet forum, it's time to take a break and go for a walk outside or something.

[The Familia]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Oh dear lord…they aren't a government, you dork. What they do has no direct impact on your life other than how you waste your time in-between work.

I like to be here a lot, but it seems like some people take this site waaaay too seriously, like any change to it is akin to someone running over their dog.

When you're this upset about the policies of an internet forum, it's time to take a break and go for a walk outside or something.

The same could be said, "when you are this upset about what some random stranger on an internet forum posts, it is time to take a break and go for a walk outside." This applies to anyone "offended" on a message forum.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by dammage79

On a personal level, I think censorship is wrong, and this a case of censorship. It's also a limitation on freedom of choice in an area where it was freely utilized for many years before (it is irrelevant to constantly point out you can get the material elsewhere as it was here for so darned long). I don't think it's progression towards meeting the end goal at all, In fact I feel it's regressive.

If an attractive woman walked by at work, and after she passed out of earshot you made a comment to a group of male and female co-workers to the effect of "I'll be masturbating to that later", and then you subsequently get disciplined by HR - is that censorship?

The forum, similar (presumably) to your workplace, is not a locker room. It's a public space that is regulated by the ownership/mods. I don't understand the censorship angle. If you want to start up your own forum or website of scantily clad lady pics, nobody from CP will be running over to try and censor you.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by dammage79

On a personal level, I think censorship is wrong, and this a case of censorship. It's also a limitation on freedom of choice in an area where it was freely utilized for many years before (it is irrelevant to constantly point out you can get the material elsewhere as it was here for so darned long). I don't think it's progression towards meeting the end goal at all, In fact I feel it's regressive.

This is just silly. No right is absolute. We accept many restrictions imposed by government on our freedom of expression. We can't shout "fire" for no reason in a crowded cinema. We can't say "I'm going to kill you" to our neighbours. We can't create or possess child pornography. We can't make sexist, racist, or homophobic jokes in the workplace (because governments require employers to provide harassment and discrimination-free workplaces). It seems perfectly reasonable to accept similar restrictions on a public forum intended for all Flames fans around the world.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by The Familia

The same could be said, "when you are this upset about what some random stranger on an internet forum posts, it is time to take a break and go for a walk outside." This applies to anyone "offended" on a message forum.

The thread did not get deleted because people got offended.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Bottom line is, what happened is obviously an unpopular move by a majority of posters on the site. Not because of the content but how the decision was levied. And now we're in the midst of the fallout from it.

Interesting. So the dozen or so people who are, quite frankly, throwing a hissy fit because their T&A got deleted suddenly represent "the majority"?

You over estimate yourself, dammage79.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Peanut

If an attractive woman walked by at work, and after she passed out of earshot you made a comment to a group of male and female co-workers to the effect of "I'll be masturbating to that later", and then you subsequently get disciplined by HR - is that censorship?

The forum, similar (presumably) to your workplace, is not a locker room. It's a public space that is regulated by the ownership/mods. I don't understand the censorship angle. If you want to start up your own forum or website of scantily clad lady pics, nobody from CP will be running over to try and censor you.

No, Censorship in this instance would be eliminating attractive women from the workplace to eliminate the off handed remark made by " me". Thusly, no discipline would be handed out.

Please do go back and read my posts thoroughly, the material in which this decision was made is not what I am debating, its the methods of which made this decision come to pass.

So the attempted scathing reamark about me going to open up my own site with scantily clad women is unwarranted and unwelcome.

Because as far as the actual issue were discussing here ( insensitive comments made by posters) goes, I'm in favor of greater efforts put into addressing them. And do not support such remarks.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Makarov

This is just silly. No right is absolute. We accept many restrictions imposed by government on our freedom of expression. We can't shout "fire" for no reason in a crowded cinema. We can't say "I'm going to kill you" to our neighbours. We can't create or possess child pornography. We can't make sexist, racist, or homophobic jokes in the workplace (because governments require employers to provide harassment and discrimination-free workplaces). It seems perfectly reasonable to accept similar restrictions on a public forum intended for all Flames fans around the world.

You don't hold everyone accountable for the actions made by few. You deal with each infraction on an individual basis and effect change in that manner. This is what I am saying.

You don't go kick every person out of the theater because one nincompoop screams fire, you remove that one person.

Your examples can be just as easily construed as silly as you think mine are .