RIP You Love You Lose thread

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Peanut

A first year RN who gets a 1.0 line, maybe. But most first year RN's (in my experience anyways with my friends) pick up casual lines because they can't get hired to a line (even a 0.6 or 0.8) because they have no seniority with they union.

And I'm an engineer and I think $80k/year in Alberta is probably not out of the realm of realty. I know how much I made my first year out several years ago.

And an Alberta engineer with 10 years experience is likely making more than the RN at 10 years. We could look at the APEGA survey to see.

Your experience with RNs is likely years old. My experience, more than half of first year RNs are getting full time lines if they want it.

You've proved my point. A female dominated profession (Registered Nurse) has very similar pay as a male dominated profession (Engineer), both have similar education requirements.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by exiledflamesfan

A female dominated profession (registered nurse) has very similar pay as a male dominated profession (engineer), both have similar education requirements.

[Citation Needed]

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Yes, I'm the one who is out of touch with reality. The average annual salary for all RNs in Alberta is ~$64k (source); we can reasonably expect that recent graduates just entering the profession will be making much less than that. So I'm highly skeptical of your claim that first-year RNs "will make more than $80 000 in Alberta", and you provided no citation to support your assertion.

Your worldview is so skewed you won't even take the word from a guy who obviously has first hand knowledge of healthcare wages in Alberta.

Just for you bud:
https://www.una.ab.ca/collectiveagre...salaryappendix

Last collective agreement, ended in 2013. Starting wage 35/hr.

New collective agreement signed:
[URL=http://www.edmontonjournal.com/reaches+tentative+deal+with+Alberta+registered+nur ses/10012418/story.html[/URL]
35 + 2% + $3000 bonus=77,000 for a first year RN. Plus shift differential and he/she will easily earn more than 80 000

And this is all assuming the base salary will remain 35/hr which is unlikely after 2 years without a contract. 2%/year for inflation is pretty standard

[MarchHare]

Average salaries in Alberta:

Aerospace Engineer: $107k
Civil Engineer: $92k
Computer Engineer: $89k
Petroleum Engineer: $107k
Industrial and Manufacturing Engineer: $83k
Chemical Engineer: $111k
Geological Engineer: $101k
Registered Nurse: $64k

Source: http://occinfo.alis.alberta.ca/occin...wse-wages.html

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Average salaries in Alberta:

Aerospace Engineer: $107k
Civil Engineer: $92k
Computer Engineer: $89k
Petroleum Engineer: $107k
Industrial and Manufacturing Engineer: $83k
Chemical Engineer: $111k
Geological Engineer: $101k
Registered Nurse: $64k

Source: http://occinfo.alis.alberta.ca/occin...wse-wages.html

Hahahaha. Why did you completely ignore my citation? Can you at least now admit that a first year nurse could easily make 80 000/year?

Nurses get paid by the hour and not salaried. Your comparison is useless. How many part time engineers do you know? Because I know tons of part time nurses.

I presented the entire wage schedule for all RNs in the province of Alberta. I've shown that nurses are very well paid. My point has been made. Goodnight

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Honestly curious if anyone knows why nurses work only an average of 28 hours a week as it says in the information MarchHare provided. It says they earn $41/hr or something like that which is maybe where that $80k number is coming from as that's roughly what you would earn at 40 hours per week.

I'm just curious how many choose to be part time for whatever reason and how many are forced into it? Really have no idea as I'm not familiar with the industry. And why are they forced into it? (if they are at all). I'm suspecting it's because of regional differences (ie too many nurses in one area, not enough jobs) but that seems unlikely as nurses seem in pretty high demand from what I've gathered over the years. I knew a nurse who was I remember was always working lots of OT, years ago so mind you but you'd have to think OT is somewhat common in an industry like this. What is bringing the average hours per week down so much?

[Iceman57]

.......nice to see that this thread hasnt been completely derailed (sigh)

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Honestly curious if anyone knows why nurses work only an average of 28 hours a week as it says in the information MarchHare provided. It says they earn $41/hr or something like that which is maybe where that $80k number is coming from as that's roughly what you would earn at 40 hours per week.

I'm just curious how many choose to be part time for whatever reason and how many are forced into it? Really have no idea as I'm not familiar with the industry. And why are they forced into it? (if they are at all). I'm suspecting it's because of regional differences (ie too many nurses in one area, not enough jobs) but that seems unlikely as nurses seem in pretty high demand from what I've gathered over the years. I knew a nurse who was I remember was always working lots of OT, years ago so mind you but you'd have to think OT is somewhat common in an industry like this. What is bringing the average hours per week down so much?

Of the part time nurses that I work with on a daily basis, I'd say almost all of them are working part time by choice. If they want a full time job one can easily be found.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Iceman57

.......nice to see that this thread hasnt been completely derailed (sigh)

Every thread gets derailed. Every conversation evolves if it continues for long enough. You could always attempt to steer it onto a more desirable path if you choose. Or you could just complain about it.

[scottish_flame]

People in this world are too easily offended

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Hahahaha. Why did you completely ignore my citation?

I didn't ignore anything. I was pulling the data to write that post before you made your response.

I presented the entire wage schedule for all RNs in the province of Alberta. I've shown that nurses are very well paid. My point has been made. Goodnight

Your claim was that nurses are just as well compensated as engineers, which is patently false. I stand by my data which comes directly from the provincial government: the average engineer in Alberta makes significantly more than the average nurse. There's nothing controversial about that statement and I can't see why anyone would dispute that fact. I imagine most engineers would even agree that they're better paid than most nurses.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Of the part time nurses that I work with on a daily basis, I'd say almost all of them are working part time by choice. If they want a full time job one can easily be found.

Why are they voluntarily choosing part time work? Is it so they can spend more time at home with their children?

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I didn't ignore anything. I was pulling the data to write that post before you made your response.



Your claim was that nurses are just as well compensated as engineers, which is patently false. I stand by my data which comes directly from the provincial government: the average engineer in Alberta makes significantly more than the average nurse. There's nothing controversial about that statement and I can't see why anyone would dispute that fact. I imagine most engineers would even agree that they're better paid than most nurses.

No you didn't. Still can't differentiate between salary and hourly wage eh?

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Why are they voluntarily choosing part time work? Is it so they can spend more time at home with their children?

I'll do a poll just for you bud. But only if you drop the self righteous attitude.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Why are they voluntarily choosing part time work? Is it so they can spend more time at home with their children?

Well they are volunteering to have children. Presumably.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by photon

Not necessarily, but it certainly is a useful heuristic. Either she agrees with him enough to be associated with him, or didn't do any homework on him, either case makes me less inclined to invest a lot of effort into seeing if what she's saying has any merit.

She certainly didn't seem to think it necessary to support anything she says in the video, the first link in the details of the video isn't a list of sources, but a link to donate.

Look at the video titles on their University:
History: "Was it Wrong to Drop the Atom Bomb on Japan?"
PolySci: "Is the UN Unfair to Israel"
History: "Why is modern art so bad?"
PolySci: "How the Liberal University Hurts the Liberal Student"
Religion: "God vs. Atheism: Which is More Rational?"

All 5ish minute videos, none of which had a single reference that I saw.

I don't know if I should laugh or weep.

That's not eduction, it's just preaching. Not even preaching, when I preached at least I supported what I was saying.

Yes, I saw those as well... Distance yourself! Distance yourself!

I think the "university", like most media, is looking for content in this situation. I don't paint them all with a wide brush but when there is an opportunity to speak on something your passionate about people tend to do it. This woman speaks across the country on this issue and not specifically for Prager. They just produced the video and used her speech so they "own it". The question is, does it hurt her rep or help? It is getting exposure.

[kirant]

This post has nothing to do with the YLYL topic and I actually don't get how two new topics about this (after the discussion over its existence) have combined to become over, at this point, 500+ posts...it's just a thought I had related to statistics.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

IYour claim was that nurses are just as well compensated as engineers, which is patently false. I stand by my data which comes directly from the provincial government: the average engineer in Alberta makes significantly more than the average nurse. There's nothing controversial about that statement and I can't see why anyone would dispute that fact. I imagine most engineers would even agree that they're better paid than most nurses.

I think it's important to clear details about what each statistic represents though.

The annual average salary stat is a bit confusing because it takes multiple employees and assumes they work the same hours. On the ALIS website, it lists both average salary and average wage. RNs have an average hourly wage of $42.60 and an average annual salary of $63,922.00 which works to about 1500 hours a year. If I pull the Electrical Engineer's stats (I honestly pulled this one at random. I hit E for Engineer and that was the first result), it has a comparable hourly wage ($46.63) but a much higher annual salary ($96,142) which suggests higher hours (~2060).

The use of hourly wage makes more sense to me as well because then we remove the idea that one profession, for whatever reason (and that's a topic beyond what I wanted to focus on in my post), works more or less hours than another. This kind of levels the field between part-time and full-time work as per how much one is paid based on the amount of work they do (assuming the amount of work done per hour is the same for both groups). And if we do, the numbers you're looking for are:
- Aerospace Engineer: $54.82
- Civil Engineer: $46.11
- Computer Engineer: $44.86
- Electrical Engineer: $46.63
- Petroleum Engineer: $52.41
- Industrial and Manufacturing Engineer: ???
- Chemical Engineer: $55.54
- Geological Engineer: $49.86
- Average of "Engineers": $50.03±$4.33

- Registered Nurse: $42.60


You can do what you want with the numbers. I think they make more sense based on the situation though.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Do engineers make more $/hr on average because they are predominantly men? Or is there another reason? If more women become engineers, would the average $/hr drop? If sexism didn't exist at all, how many women would become engineers vs men? Is there a possibility that more men become engineers than women for other reasons besides sexism? What would that number be in a world without sexism? Impossible to answer. Just thinking out loud.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Why are they voluntarily choosing part time work? Is it so they can spend more time at home with their children?

What are you driving at?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Can you please kindly explain how recognizing that boys and girls are both overtly and subtly encouraged to pursue different educational and career paths pretty much from early childhood and that men and women are frequently expected to take on different roles vis-à-vis bread-winning/child-raising, and that these societal pressures result in often extreme variances in male vs. female lifetime earnings is an "extreme feminist view" that "sells hate"?

corporatejay, I believe if you attempt to wade through this you will find your answer. Not sure where free will, personal responsibility and becoming your own person play into all this. I'd guess it's our patriarchal society something, something...

[pylon]

I take a ton of credit apps on first year, fresh out of school nurses, and they are easily pulling 80k+. That may be a Calgary thing, but I see it regularly. It is more the norm, than not. There is mountains of hours for them to pick up.

My niece took a 1 year T/A course at Bow Valley College to work with special needs kids, and she is pulling $50+ k/yr at 21. She barely managed to graduate from High School.