Training Camp - Sept 23

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Here's an article with Trevor Gillies, our AHL enforcer.

In reference to Mirasty

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/1...dered-round-2/

*WARNING: the following discourse is a rant that has nothing to do with Flames training camp on 23 Sept.*

This whole exchange is a big part of the problem I have with fighting in hockey. It's similarly on display whenever McGrattan gets in a tilt, and then afterwards pats his opponent on the head in a gesture of respect. The presence of enforcers in the NHL has over the course of time developed a different meaning than it once had, as it has now become about the fights tangential to the game itself.

I suppose Mirasty could make the case that his hope to "redeem" himself by intentionally jumping a player from the team as a result of being on the wrong side of a fight with Gillies is meant to jack up his teammates, and produce an effect in their overall level of play. But I don't buy it. The "fighting culture" has become an end in itself. It perpetuates on the idea that it is about maintaining the unspoken code of fair play and for the purpose of infusing one's teammates with "energy," but in the end, it is really just about being the toughest guy on the ice.

It reminds me a little bit of a story from the Bible (bear with me—I'm a Bible scholar; almost everything reminds me of something in the Bible). In Exod. 17 the wandering Israelites were attacked at Rephidim by the Amalekites. Their leader, Moses, ascended to the top of a hill overlooking the battle with two attendants to "do his part." In Exod. 17:11, "As long as Moses kept his hands raised, Israel prevailed, but whenever he let his hands fall, then the Amalekites prevailed." So, the Israelites slaughtered their enemies and won the day because Moses was (with a little help from his friends) able to keep his hands raised, presumably to the effect of "empowering" his kinsmen to achieve victory.

It's a story about magic. And much like fighting in the NHL—much like what Mirasty expresses in his penalty box chat with Gillies—victory is somehow viewed as a product of separate event that is unconnected to the game on the ice. Either Mirasty is uninterested in what is occurring in the game, and only concerned about saving face, or he believes that he is magic—that a positive result from a fight is enfused with some sort of voodoo that will push his team to win.

*end rant*

[Vulcan]

that a positive result from a fight is enfused with some sort of voodoo that will push his team to win.

It isn't voodoo and in some cases it works otherwise we and other teams wouldn't employ them.

[djsFlames]

I think Diaz is going to make the team, by all indications so far. Will make for a good 7th option on defence.

[doctajones428]

Wait, that piece of trash Trevor Gillies is on our farm team? After what he did to Tangradi and Clutterbuck I'm surprised he's playing hockey anywhere

NHL Career:

57 GP, 2 goals, 1 assist, 261 PIMS, missed 19 games due to suspensions

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

It isn't voodoo and in some cases it works otherwise we and other teams wouldn't employ them.

"Dallas Eakins is an NHL quality coach because he is employed by an NHL team."
"If Tyler Bozak wasn't a legitimate top-line centre, then he wouldn't be the top line centre on an NHL team."

That's a pretty circular argument. It IS voodoo because the impact is co-relative to the event itself, and is also deeply subject to interpretation: I have also noticed that the Flames play ALOT better when I have my jersey on and am tuned in to my TV, but only with a cold bottle of McEwan's in hand.

If fighting isn't hockey voodoo, then the correlation between the outcome of the event (the individual fight) and the game itself would be the same every time: you win a fight, your team wins the game.

To be sure, I don't question the fact that players, coaches and fans believe there to be some sort of impact. What I do question is the necessity of it—without the idiotic sort of fighting that is described in the attached article, players would find something else from which to draw inspiration.

*EDIT* I actually think the last line in the article sums up pretty much what I am getting at:

Originally Posted by Justin Bourne

"The fighters truly exist under their own set of rules, and it’s hard on these guys. As much as many fans would like to see these guys eliminated from the game, they do entertain, they become fan favourites, and they know their roles. Whether they’re serving a purpose for their team or not (judging by the fact that killers like these two can’t crack the NHL full-time, you be the judge), there they are, night in, night out, doing what it takes to call themselves professional hockey players."

Like I said, I suspect that fighting in hockey survives not because it serves an actual purpose that contributes to the outcome of the game, but because of how it makes people feel—whether they be players, coaches or fans.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by sempuki

When I read what you say, is it wrong that I think of you as a man in a green suit and a shrunken head?

It's actually a turtle suit. You know , for the Turtle club

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

Wait, that piece of trash Trevor Gillies is on our farm team? After what he did to Tangradi and Clutterbuck I'm surprised he's playing hockey anywhere

NHL Career:

57 GP, 2 goals, 1 assist, 261 PIMS, missed 19 games due to suspensions

Yup. He was on the Farm last year too.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

It isn't voodoo and in some cases it works otherwise we and other teams wouldn't employ them.

Every study into the effect of fighting on win percentage has shown it to be completely irrelevant to wins. It's been looked at ad nauseum.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Every study into the effect of fighting on win percentage has shown it to be completely irrelevant to wins. It's been looked at ad nauseum.

Every study, eh?

[Vulcan]

It served more of a purpose before they brought in the instigator rule. Now they are slowly getting rid of fighting by adding more and more caveats to the fights. The tough guys were more policemen out on the ice but now they are trying to regulate the game by cluttering it up with more rules. At one time the Euro leagues were the dirtiest around because they knew they could get away with their spears and crosschecks with at most a 2 minute penalty whereas in NA, if you ran around like that you'd soon meet your maker. Anyways, go on enjoy your boring Euro hockey. To me fighting is a part of the game. Some just take it to deeper lengths than others.

[Vulcan]

Personally Textcritic I just think you are being obtuse. If you haven't noticed that our goalies get run far less since McGrattan arrived I don't know what to tell you. To me when a goalie is able to do his job with little interference that's a plus. This goes for our skill players as well.

[Textcritic]

^
I took the liberty of moving this discussion to its own thread, including Caged Great's last post (sorry about that), and I think we should continue there.

[Vulcan]

nm

[bigbadboss101]

Exactly, what does this have to do with training camp?

[bubbsy]

well let's see just how much all these "forward thinking" genius analytic guys getting into management positions at the NHL actually hold any weight in decisions.

i'd imagine almost every single fighter in the league (heavy weight, heck, even the middle weights) have just horrid possession numbers, as well as almost any other metric used to quantify actual hockey play quality/value.

fighters, which hold an almost completely isolated value for the "traditionalists", should quickly disappear if GMs are actually putting weight on what the analytics are going to show.

i'm all for fighting in hockey, as a means of policing dirty play and hits. However, guys who are only there to play 5 mins and then stage a fight just seem meaningless to me.

I think we're going to see a trend of the big fighters go away (ie. heavy weights). Guys like chris neil, will stay in the NHL, however, they become your 4th liners, as i think we're seeing more and more teams going with 3 scoring lines, and 1 gritty/checking line, with guys like chris neil, bouma, komarov, clutterbuck, etc (guys who can play regular shifts, but bring an edge).

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

Lots of young guns, good

Noooooooo!!!!!

[Volica]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Yup. He was on the Farm last year too.

People forget he got around 10 games in a Heat jersey last year. Now all of a sudden they're pissed he's at camp.
In Abby he wasn't a menace that we're all painting him to be. Maybe the guy has finally figured out he won't have a career playing hockey anymore if he continues down this road... clearly he hasn't made a fortune in his career with only around 50 games under his belt; and being in the AHL is pretty much a regular Joe salary for most players.

Dude's a clown, that's certain, but I'm fine with him being in the AHL for us... That team will be ridiculously young.

[3rd line Grinder]

Sooo.... Back to that training camp. Can anyone tell me how Arnold and culkin are doing? I haven't really heard much and noticedt hey weren't playing today

[TjRhythmic]

Training camp and fighting news. Calgary brought in a fighting coach

http://www.tsn.ca/flames-devote-part...-fight-1.91253

[bigbadboss101]

So the 7th D spot is a bettle between Diaz and Brookbank? Wotherspoon is injured and I dont see any of the other kids making it at start of the year. Diaz is good at moving the puck and created offensive chances. Brookbank has more size but with Engelland back there I don't know if we want another gritty D as opposed to another puck moving D. Comments?