YLYL Thread and other things...

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's good you found a way to speak up. There's nothing wrong with that. Sexism needs to be addressed in a far more assertive manner than what has been done here today. In no way am I in disagreement with you. I do find it unfortunate that you felt that until recently there was no avenue for you to address your concerns. Just goes to show how far CP has to go I suppose.

Closing the thread isn't the answer though. At least in my humble opinion.

But, what is done is done.

Again no one said it was the answer. We deliberately stated that the issue is much bigger than the singular thread. Did you...
A. Not read the OP
B. Choose to ignore what we wrote

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Again no one said it was the answer. We deliberately stated that the issue is much bigger than the singular thread. Did you...
A. Not read the OP
B. Choose to ignore what we wrote

Neither. I stated that it was a weak attempt to show how directions were going to change instead of a substantial movement. Not giving it a chance to survive under the new guidelines. Whats the issue here? That I disagree with what the OP said and have an observation seeing it as contrary?

Bottom line, it's done, I'm a poster who did not agree with your decision and will carry on vsiting CP without said thread. The fact that there are a good number not pleased with the decision but accept it as it's attempting to do the right thing should give you an idea of what I am getting at. Just wish you guys would have better dealt with things before commiting to a total disposal of a really popular thread. Like it or not, that's how I see it. Not that it matters much right? Oligarchy and such.

[calf]

Originally Posted by dammage79

N
Still does not save the fact Censoring it does nothing to curb the issue at hand. Nor will it.

I think you have it backwards. The mods have determined they'd like to curb sexism on the forum, and YLYL was deleted as a result of this. I don't think anyone thinks it is "delete YLYL, sexisim will be gone".

And I think it's more than just pictures of women. - it's the general lack of empathy and respect that gets shown when someone has a differing opinion. Or, to put it another way, that women don't feel welcome here when there is a obvious attitude of objectification or lack when women are brought into a topic here. It's the dismissive responses when it comes to the YLYL thread. Or the generalizations of "women are attracted to a-holes that drive big trucks".

It always bothers me, as a married man, that when someone posts a topic asking a question regarding their gf, daughter, relationship, etc, several comments seem to be "pics?".

We, as a diverse community, wouldn't accept a thread about how people of a certain race act or do certain things, or if it seemed there was a bias against them. So, I'm not sure why we can't listen and respect the opinions of women and adapt policies and guidelines when it's clear people have concerns.

It's not about the scourge of political correctness, it's about respect and doing what's right for those in our community.

[driveway]

Thank you for deleting the thread. The right decision is rarely the popular decision.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

No, I don't think it is a succinct summary of what we did. We were asked our opinions and we gave them. I didn't report anyone that said I was being whiny. I didn't report anyone that said I was inventing problems on the board. I didn't report anyone that said that I was imagining things or exaggerating the problem. I didn't ignore posts. I responded to them, and somewhat reasonably, I think. It's unfair that our side of the argument was classified as whining.

As an aside, what should we have done? We don't speak up and the problem persists. We speak up and we are told we are just a loud, whiny, vocal minority.

It's much easier to write off valid arguments as "whining" rather than attempting to actually look at oneself and see that maybe, just maybe, we could all be doing better at accepting others.

The topic was brought up, our opinions were requested, and we responded with our opinions. I know I have never reported a post as offensive, not in that thread, not in any thread, in general I have a pretty thick skin and won't go out of my way to make a fuss. However, when there is a question asked about something I feel strongly about (sexism and its pervasiveness in society in general), I'm going to voice my opinion about it. That's not whining--that's supporting a cause you believe in.

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's good you found a way to speak up. There's nothing wrong with that. Sexism needs to be addressed in a far more assertive manner than what has been done here today. In no way am I in disagreement with you. I do find it unfortunate that you felt that until recently there was no avenue for you to address your concerns. Just goes to show how far CP has to go I suppose.

Closing the thread isn't the answer though. At least in my humble opinion.

But, what is done is done.

No, closing the thread won't magically stop sexism. But it's also not the only step being taken. And beyond that thread being deleted--if just one or two people, after all of this discussion, think twice before making a crappy, sexist remark and edit themselves--then it's a step in the right direction.

You can't fix racism with one step. You can't fix homophobia in one step. You can't stop sexism with one step.

But each step forward is a good step to take.

[photon]

Originally Posted by dammage79

But tell me this, would the thread have been closed at all if it was not brought up in the gay teen thread? Likely not. because it was not an issue before that. Like I said, it's lived 2 iterations on this site without so much as a peep.

I was the one that asked the question if the thread was sexist, because it's been something that's been on my mind for quite a while and the time seemed opportune to ask it, so if it hadn't have been brought up there I would have asked the question sooner or later. And if I hadn't a number of other mods had similar concerns. So likely not is likely incorrect.

Originally Posted by dammage79

So yes, I do think the purpose of closing the thread was a reaction to the topic of sexism and was axed in a move to show "initiative". Kind of plain to see when you're not convoluding things.

Well you can think what you wish, I was privy to what went on in my brain and what was discussed among the mods though. By convoluding you mean explaining what really happened?

Originally Posted by dammage79

Are you not THE moderators on this site? Just because you volunteer your time and don't get paid for it does not mean it is not a job. It's a job you choose to do for free. Seems your aim here was to turn that comment into a negative, it wasn't.

Saying "do your job" is an implicit implication that you aren't doing your job, a criticism which is negative. Imagine if someone volunteered to shovel your driveway every day. Now imagine them missing a spot and you telling them to "do your job". Think they'll still want to volunteer?

Constructive criticism is better, which you also did in your post.

I don't see it as a job, if I did I'd quit, but that's semantics I guess, to me job includes obligation. It is something I choose to volunteer to do for free, but it's not an obligation, it's a way to support and facilitate a community I enjoy.

Sometimes some of it feels like a job, dealing with legal threats, being subject to verbal abuse, threats or other disturbing behaviour against me personally, dealing with the technical side, slogging through pages of adults behaving like children to figure out wtf is going on, there's a lot of job-like stuff. But then seeing people in the community connect and support each other, great discussions where I or others learn something or raise conciousness, etc.. the crap is just stuff that has to be dealt with along the way.

[taco.vidal]

It seems that many people posting in the poll thread do not understand what sexist or sexism means. It was clear that some people did not like the thread itself and did not like what they thought it brought to the forum.

Misogyny is another word many people use today yet seem to not know the meaning of the word or attempt to twist its meaning to fit their purposes.

Originally Posted by photon

I was the one that asked the question if the thread was sexist, because it's been something that's been on my mind for quite a while and the time seemed opportune to ask it, so if it hadn't have been brought up there I would have asked the question sooner or later. And if I hadn't a number of other mods had similar concerns. So likely not is likely incorrect.
.

[pylon]

Bingo's sandbox, Bingo's rules.

Deal with it folks. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

[The Fonz]

I never voted to get rid of it, but I do understand the reasons behind this decision.

It didn't add much at all to CP, but it absolutely did cause tension. At the end of the day, the mods didn't want that thread to be a representation of what CP is. What's so hard to understand about that?

[Mightyfire89]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

You can't fix racism with one step. You can't fix homophobia in one step. You can't stop sexism with one step.

Which basically means you can't fix stupid.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

A valid point of view, yes. But not an entitlement. CP is a private forum, and as such, its operators have the right to set whatever limits they choose on the community's privilege of expression.



I mentioned the slippery slope fallacy in response to the people arguing that this gives anyone offended by anything the ability to have threads shut down.

In the end, I would feel very confident that the ultimate change to the forum will be minimal. Hot chick sitting behind the bench at a game? Guys watching on TV are going to comment and joke. Ditto our female members when a hot guy is shown, or Lundqvist does a spread for GQ. Those examples, however, are normal discourse with limited spans that will usually be commented on and forgotten faster than a 4chan post. The issues lie with threads intended to have a lasting impact - which ylyl did - and which creates an ongoing cultural issue where a large percentage of the forum's membership was made to feel uncomfortable, and therefore unwelcome, on the basis of their being female.

Just not sure how my post could be considered an example of entitlement when I expressly agreed that the owners can do as they like. Otherwise, I don't see much else to discuss, as I think most of the ideas have been exhausted.

[To Be Quite Honest]

There could always be a $10 yearly fee to the site and remove the need for ads and other profit generation... Then we could run wild and free!

Anyway, Photons post and questions about the YLYL thread brought more attention to the thread than anything else. I posted in it after a 3.5 year hiatus. I voted to keep it as is and allow the posters to learn from it, but that could be asking too much of others. In the end it's fine to voice what you think and create a reasonable discussion and, when the dust clears, if the moderation rules end up being to stringent then you can go and post some place else. Vote with you posts! If enough people do that then it could cause a revision, but I highly doubt that these changes will cause that. These are, after all, reasonable changes.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by photon

In the case of the YLYL thread there's a case to be made that the pictures themselves and the fact they're in a thread dedicated to such pictures is objectification of women (and that was explored to some degree in the poll thread), personally that's why I ultimately supported removing the thread; the thread, pictures, context, etc as a whole are sexist IMO.

Never went into that thread or knew of the drama before reading this thread, but is the whole issue that there was a thread of sexy ladies and men talking about sexy ladies, and this is somehow supporting sexism?

If so, that's pretty laughable. Look at society as a whole, men, women, everyone is objectified and sex is pervasive throughout our culture. To think deleting the thread is helping society out in any manner is funny given the orders of magnitude of other things that go on on a daily basis. This is a discussion forum, and those whom it offends are free to avoid such discussions (I avoid the religion ones like the plague). All such moderation serves to do is alienate your supporting members by creating a culture of censorship and overmoderation without much reasoning. You're no longer simply moderating illegal or unacceptable behavior, you're trying to mold the discussions and topics to suit your needs.

Now, I may have misunderstood the situation, but thats my take. The better run forums I frequent understand they are a mode of discussion for a group of people, and moderation is limited. Trying to change people through moderation leads only to alienation and further troubles.

[doctajones428]

Should of punished the sexist posters instead of deleting the whole thread. *shrugs*

[photon]

Almost every forum tries to mould the discussion and topics, if you want an example of ones that don't check out 4chan or some subreddits.

It's not about anyone taking offence; we don't limit racist or homophobic posts because some take offence, we do it because those things are unacceptable. And we certainly wouldn't want to have racist threads and say "oh if you don't like it don't go into that thread".

In your terms we moderate illegal or unacceptable behaviour, and unacceptable has changed over time, it's just continuing to change. Limiting and eventually removing racist or homophobic posts/posters hasn't created a culture of censorship and over moderation IMO (and if we alienate racists or homophobes, more the better), I don't think this will either.

[Pizza]

Very Disappointed with the decision of shutting it down...

So many ways to handle the thread and instead of having tighter moderation on it with some kind of compromise, the extreme of choice of removing it completely was made

[flamesfan6]

Pardon my ignorance and not reading this thread or the other but:

Could there have not been a YLYL Hot Men Thread? etc

If a person objects they don't have to click on a thread.

I guess I just don't agree with shutting down a thread because a few people spoke up against it. If there was a YLYL Men thread as well would we be having the same discussion we are now?

In the end we have to go with what the Mods want, but as I did see in brief posts - It survived 2 iterations of the thread, adn then all of a sudden a few people speak out against it and all of a sudden it's bad. I get why some people thought it would be objectifying, and at times yes it was. There was nothing stopping other threads being created that were for the opposite gender or others, but just happens that (guessing) the majority of people on this forums are guys.

Guess I'm just kind of annoyed that while yes you are attempting to fix something - in the end shutting down that 1 thread will actually do jack all to solve what people were complaining about. Shutting down that one thread will change nothing.

partly - I just hate moderators being moderators

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Never went into that thread or knew of the drama before reading this thread, but is the whole issue that there was a thread of sexy ladies and men talking about sexy ladies, and this is somehow supporting sexism?

Really, if you didn't go into the thread, nor did you actually read the thread discussing YLYL and the other sexism on the board, why voice your opinion here? Read up on what the actual discussion was, and then speak up.

If so, that's pretty laughable. Look at society as a whole, men, women, everyone is objectified and sex is pervasive throughout our culture. To think deleting the thread is helping society out in any manner is funny given the orders of magnitude of other things that go on on a daily basis. This is a discussion forum, and those whom it offends are free to avoid such discussions (I avoid the religion ones like the plague). All such moderation serves to do is alienate your supporting members by creating a culture of censorship and overmoderation without much reasoning. You're no longer simply moderating illegal or unacceptable behavior, you're trying to mold the discussions and topics to suit your needs.

Now, I may have misunderstood the situation, but thats my take. The better run forums I frequent understand they are a mode of discussion for a group of people, and moderation is limited. Trying to change people through moderation leads only to alienation and further troubles.

How much honest-to-god discussion happened in the YLYL thread? It was 90% random nearly NSFW pictures, with a few odd comments thrown in here and there.

Also everyone keeps complaining about wanting the moderators to do more work to heavily monitor that thread just so it could stay around. So you desperately want these people who volunteer their time to keep an eye on CP and babysit all of us, to have more work to do, just so you can more easily look at women in underwear/bikinis?

Trying to encourage people to be slightly more aware of what they're posting/saying/talking about is going to 'alienate' people, and yet you think the regular undercurrent of sexism that flows through a lot of threads on CP (and a whole lot of other places--CP legitimately isn't that bad, and I wouldn't have said anything if the topic wasn't brought up by a mod) doesn't alienate a huge group of people?

I really can't quite get the outrage over a thread full of half (or more) naked women. Pretty sure there are a ton of places on the internet where you can find girly pics.

[woob]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Hot chick sitting behind the bench at a game? Guys watching on TV are going to comment and joke. Ditto our female members when a hot guy is shown, or Lundqvist does a spread for GQ. Those examples, however, are normal discourse with limited spans that will usually be commented on and forgotten faster than a 4chan post.

I don't know, if you ask me, after reading the discussion on the poll thread and now this thread, your example above seems to be exactly what people want to see end, with regards to pervasive sexism. As was said multiple times throughout the poll thread, the YLYL definitely had some bad commentary in it and may have contributed to sexism on the forum, but people seemed to be more upset with the commentary throughout the forums on a regular basis.

It would seem to me, that the new modus operandi going forward will be no objectifying/derogatory posts towards either sex. We'll see how that evolves as I expect it to take considerable time.

[Pizza]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

It was 90% random nearly NSFW pictures, with a few odd comments thrown in here and there.
.

Really? 90% NSFW?

Hardly... and I had this thread up at work too