Police investigate after violent video of Wal-Mart takedown

[CKPThunder]

Originally Posted by pylon

It is pretty simple to avoid this situation, and the reaction of the guy IMO pretty much proves he stole something. Because if you are confronted by a LPO and have done nothing wrong, it takes all of about 10 seconds to dissolve the situation by talking it out.

I was in home depot and had a shower head with one of those hoses attached, because I was looking for a washer that plugged into base. I was in the plumbing aisle, and realized I left my wallet in the car. I walked out the front door with a shower head in my hand to get it, and got chased out the door by 2 employees. When they said stop, I just stopped. I took about 5 seconds to explain and show them the hard water stains on the shower head proving it was used. All parties chuckled, and when I went back in with my wallet, they gave me the $1.19 washer for nothing, and apologized for the confusion.

Keep a calm head and explain yourself, and you have nothing to worry about.

In this situation I would agree as well as it has happened to me. However, if I was already out the door and two men approached me claiming to be from Walmart looking the way they did, I may have some reservations. In your case above Pylon, you knew they were employees. How can you tell that these two guys are employees of Walmart?

To be honest, I probably wouldn't be thinking this way but maybe after reading 100+ pages in the YLYL and Barbershop thread, I am getting a sense of how a person who has to be cognizant of their surrounding may feel.

If they suspected him of shoplifting, they should have stopped him in the store or at the very least had someone like a manager come out with these two guys to explain the situation. This of course is just my opinion.

[Dynamic]

Originally Posted by T@T

So now a shoplifter should get a beatdown? You either live in another country or you should.

No I live in same country as you, lived here my whole life and as a citizen of this country I contribute to this country by means that don't and never will include stealing. I was taught that by my parents and I will teach that to my 2 young kids. I will also teach them to respect authority, whether it be a wal mart LPO or a rcmp officer. This "shoplifter" obviously did not get these lessons the easy way but hopefully he learned something.

Also from what I can tell the only reason he got a beatdown is because this genius decided to pull a weapon on the guys.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by codynw

No, not at all. Why should someone be allowed to defend themself when they get jumped by a couple meatheads in a parking lot? What a ridiculous concept.

But they are allowed to if you stole.

In the article they say "civilians" attempt to arrest which is not true. Once licensed and governed but the criminal code they are in fact peace officers.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by CKPThunder

In this situation I would agree as well as it has happened to me. However, if I was already out the door and two men approached me claiming to be from Walmart looking the way they did, I may have some reservations. In your case above Pylon, you knew they were employees. How can you tell that these two guys are employees of Walmart?

To be honest, I probably wouldn't be thinking this way but maybe after reading 100+ pages in the YLYL and Barbershop thread, I am getting a sense of how a person who has to be cognizant of their surrounding may feel.

If they suspected him of shoplifting, they should have stopped him in the store or at the very least had someone like a manager come out with these two guys to explain the situation. This of course is just my opinion.

Yes, Ideally you would stop them in the store. In reality it does take time to get to a suspect.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Yes, Ideally you would stop them in the store. In reality it does take time to get to a suspect.

I thought an LPO couldn't stop a shoplifter in the store, because there's the (remote, I know) possibility that the shoplifter could still pay or put the item back/down, since it's not actually stealing until they walk through the door without paying. So all shoplifting busts have to take place outside of the store.

[wretched34]

Update:
Jeremy Garnhum, 26, is charged with assault with a weapon, assault to overcome arrest, theft under $5,000, possession of a weapon dangerous to the public, and two charges of breach of recognizance.

No charges have been laid against the two loss prevention officers. Police continue to investigate.

So, the legal system has gone to show that the LPO's did in fact have the right to arrest, and that stabbing someone in self defense is not okay, and stealing is a crime, even if the company has lots of money.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I thought an LPO couldn't stop a shoplifter in the store, because there's the (remote, I know) possibility that the shoplifter could still pay or put the item back/down, since it's not actually stealing until they walk through the door without paying. So all shoplifting busts have to take place outside of the store.

Yes, to bust them and charge them this is true. You can how ever if the person conceals the Item on there person question them or ask them to leave as management has the right to refuse service.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Yes, to bust them and charge them this is true. You can how ever if the person conceals the Item on there person question them or ask them to leave as management has the right to refuse service.

Good to know, thanks.

[CKPThunder]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Yes, Ideally you would stop them in the store. In reality it does take time to get to a suspect.

I agree. I guess what I am trying to say is I hope these LPO have some sort of genuine identification since from the video, they could be any two random people. My concern is, what is stopping two people from tracking someone down in the parking lot and stating they need to search someone's bag or purse?

It's tough to tell from the video, but I would never have guessed these two guys were working for Walmart and my reaction would be that they probably were not and would act accordingly.

[combustiblefuel]

I would think nothing would stop them. I would assume they would have identified them selves as Loss protection Officers and asked the man to step back into the store first. Generally that is protical. The take down is usually frowned upon unless..

A) The failure of the suspect accepting he has been caught and refuses too. Then you explain They are now under arrest for shoplifting and cuff them.

B) The suspect is already running or has tried to run when confronted.

C) The suspect begins an aggressive act that endangers their self, you or others near by.


It is hard to tell what happened beforehand. The video starts during the altercation. LOP do carry some sort of ID tho.

You would be surprised how many when confronted for theft do go quietly and peacefully.

[Hevishot]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

You would be surprised how many when confronted for theft do go quietly and peacefully.

My buddy works as a LPO at a department store downtown and was recently clanged in the head with a frying pan by a crackhead trying to steal a pots and pans set (retails over 400.00) they usually end up getting 20 bucks for them on the street. He says that shoplifters fighting back or threatening them with violence and even syringes is the norm and you just get used to the crazy.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Hevishot

My buddy works as a LPO at a department store downtown and was recently clanged in the head with a frying pan by a crackhead trying to steal a pots and pans set (retails over 400.00) they usually end up getting 20 bucks for them on the street. He says that shoplifters fighting back or threatening them with violence and even syringes is the norm and you just get used to the crazy.

Please apologize to your friend, but that made me laugh way too much...

[Hevishot]

He got a serious lump on the side of the head and a black eye from it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Hevishot

He got a serious lump on the side of the head and a black eye from it.

Now I feel even worse for laughing.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Yes, to bust them and charge them this is true. You can how ever if the person conceals the Item on there person question them or ask them to leave as management has the right to refuse service.

Absolutely correct. If you suspect someone of stealing items (in this case sneaking things into their pockets), you don't wait for them to leave. You don't give a crap if they get charged, you simply want them gone and not coming back. Certainly document everything, take photos if you can, and get them off your property.

In many cases you are dealing with pros or meth heads. Meth heads return, pros hopefully go where there is less risk.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by wretched34

Update:
Jeremy Garnhum, 26, is charged with assault with a weapon, assault to overcome arrest, theft under $5,000, possession of a weapon dangerous to the public, and two charges of breach of recognizance.

No charges have been laid against the two loss prevention officers. Police continue to investigate.

So, the legal system has gone to show that the LPO's did in fact have the right to arrest, and that stabbing someone in self defense is not okay, and stealing is a crime, even if the company has lots of money.

Oops. So much for codynw's internet tough guy interpretation of things.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by codynw

I'm obviously not going to change anyone's mind, but the fact that people aren't angered by the fact that Wal Mart employees can legally use force to detain suspected shoplifters blows my mind. I don't know how a single person is okay with that.

They aren't simply Walmart employees. It's not like two cashiers thought the guy was stealing and jumped him in the parking lot. These guys are licensed from the government, and hired for this. This wouldn't be suspected shoplifting, this would be them witnessing a crime and doing their job, defending themselves when someone is preventing them from doing it.

Worth adding this guy had a history of theft and violence prior to this.

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Yes, to bust them and charge them this is true. You can how ever if the person conceals the Item on there person question them or ask them to leave as management has the right to refuse service.

While technically true, they can refuse to talk to you or tell you to f%ck off. They have no grounds to search or even ask you to stay or empty your pockets (unless of course they are arresting you.)

Certain places have certain rules for their LPO's and they are all different. Some are arrest and charge no matter how small the item, some just try to get the merchandise back and issue a ban.

Most LPO's are aware that the offence (theft under) they must observe selection, concealment and making no effort to pay. These however are not elements of the criminal code (possibly case law, I don't recall).

Fact is, most LPO's allow offenders to leave the store in order to "complete" the offence.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

While technically true, they can refuse to talk to you or tell you to f%ck off. They have no grounds to search or even ask you to stay or empty your pockets (unless of course they are arresting you.)

Certain places have certain rules for their LPO's and they are all different. Some are arrest and charge no matter how small the item, some just try to get the merchandise back and issue a ban.

Most LPO's are aware that the offence (theft under) they must observe selection, concealment and making no effort to pay. These however are not elements of the criminal code (possibly case law, I don't recall).

Fact is, most LPO's allow offenders to leave the store in order to "complete" the offence.

Yes, this is all true. All places have different policies. One store I know only does ask about it as a warning. Even if they say #### of as " hey we know what your trying to pull here, we are watching you. You have been warned."

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Hevishot

My buddy works as a LPO at a department store downtown and was recently clanged in the head with a frying pan by a crackhead trying to steal a pots and pans set (retails over 400.00) they usually end up getting 20 bucks for them on the street. He says that shoplifters fighting back or threatening them with violence and even syringes is the norm and you just get used to the crazy.

Ouch ! Yes some people get violent. The worst thing I got hit with when I was working security for Hip Hop show at a small bar here in Victoria was a woonden stool. I was not the initial targeted person. Two groups of 10 people started fighting after a guy threw a drink at a girl. Then all hell broke loose. One thing lead to another a guy moved I got hit in the back. I fell down and walked on and kicked.

The end result was VICPD showed up as the fight spilled out side to the parking lot. 9 out of 20 were arrested the rest had scattered. Had no video footage as there were no cameras and the outside ones didn't have night vision. The next day the owners ended up buying a can system.

The 8 of us working Security were all bleeding and swollen. I ended up with two broken fingers from being stepped on and a dislocated shoulder with a torn rotor cup.

It was like a Royal rumble man . It was wild.

It was the last gig I worked. I have problems with my shoulder popping out still because of it. It was a second Job to make a little extra cash not what I wanted to do as I already had a day job.