Israel announces largest seizure of Palestinian land in the past 30 years

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

You seem to not know what the word anecdotal means.

This is also not some unique perspective. Pretty much every reporter and statistician looking into the situation has noted the same thing. These are really easy to find, and that one for example is simply based on IDF:s own statistics.





Citation needed. See, the problem is that anybody can make up any crap they want. The facts just don't align the way you say they do, no matter how much you say they do.

Also, this is now. History was then.




Citation needed.

Also, who says that Hamas built tunnels specifically for the purpose of launching a major attack?

Most of the world community agrees that they were for smuggling goods. Yes, that includes weapons, but considering that Israel is claiming it's not controlling Palestine and that they can declare war on Palestine as if it was an independent nation, that pretty much says that Palestines have a right to arm themselves. You can't start attacking them on a thought crime.

After all, it's pretty obvious that the Hamas has very legitimate reasons to fear that Israel will attack them, and they have a right to defend themselves.

Assuming that Israel seriously does not consider Palestinians to be Israelis.

If Israel does consider Palestinians to be Israelis, then they have effectively been bombing their own civilian population, which is a war crime by any stretch of the imagination and their leaders should be summarily brought to justice.

You just can't have it both ways.

And ultimately, it's not even about who shot first. I think this summarizes the reality quite well:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/...israelis-fear/

The tunnels built into the Sinai Peninsula are used for smuggling and attacks. The tunnels built into Israel have no purpose but for attacks. No one agrees with your point.

And while Israel does kill many Palestinians, they don't come anywhere near to killing them all. In fact the Palestinian population has been one of the fastest growing populations in the world. The minority populations within Gaza are gone, and if the Israelis allowed themselves to be minorities in Hamas controlled government they would be gone too.

And it doesn't matter which way you look at it (defensive or offensive) if you build tunnels into Israel, Israel has zero choice but to go into Gaza and destroy those tunnels.

And no Palestinians are not Israelis. They are citizens of the Palestinian Authority. There are about 2 million Arabs living peacefully in Israel who are Israelis, and the Israeli army also defends them, as Hamas' attacks are not discriminatory. So, in fact, the ones attacking their own people are Hamas.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by blankall

Yes because the UN has shown themselves to be such a fair and unbiased body in this conflict. Even now Hamas is storing rockets and running military bases out of UN hospitals and schools, which is in violation of just about every rule of war. And the UN is helping them do this and covering up their actions.

So basically you're saying that Unicef is part of some anti-Israel conspiracy now.

That's deep, man. Deep.

I'm fascinated to hear your explanations as to what could possibly be their motivation for this?

And of course let's not forget all the other aid organizations in the area that are also running schools and hospitals and saying pretty much the same things about the IDF. I'm sure they're all in on it.

The simple fact of the matter is that there is no international law that makes it illegal for Jews to move back into a place that Jordan expelled them from in 1949 (that's East Jerusalem).

The simple fact is that you're wrong.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Swarez

So why do people keep bringing up Hamas? The Palestinian Authority controls the West Bank where this land is. Hamas has nothing to do with this since they control Gaza which again is not the West Bank.

For a thread full of experts you would think someone would bring that up, instead of me who really knows nothing on the matter.

Hamas also operates in the West Bank. The kidnapping of the 3 Israeli teens occurred in the West Bank not too far from where this land grab is to take place. The purpose of the kidnapping was to scare Israelis out of the land. The land grab is a statement that that tactic won't work.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

So basically you're saying that Unicef is part of some anti-Israel conspiracy now.

That's deep, man. Deep.

I'm fascinated to hear your explanations as to what could possibly be their motivation for this?

And of course let's not forget all the other aid organizations in the area that are also running schools and hospitals and saying pretty much the same things about the IDF. I'm sure they're all in on it.

The simple fact is that you're wrong.

Show me that law then. What law states that you cannot move back into a place that you were thrown out of 18 years earlier. In 1949 Jordan demolished the Jewish quarter of East Jerusalem and destroyed all the surrounding towns. That is a fact.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

Show me that law then. What law states that you cannot move back into a place that you were thrown out of 18 years earlier. In 1949 Jordan demolished the Jewish quarter of East Jerusalem and destroyed all the surrounding towns. That is a fact.

Israel claiming rights to land stolen from their people in 1949... Great! When do Israelis leave the Arab towns they stole in 1949?

Man some of the mental gymnastics people go through to defend illegal Israeli action is shocking.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by blankall

Show me that law then.

Fourth Geneva convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring it's civilian population into occupied territory. (Both the International Justice Court and the International Committee of the Red Cross have concluded that this applies to Palestinian territory.)

The supreme court of Israel itself has concluded (in 1979) that permanent settlements in Palestine territory are in violation of Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907.

But I'm sure the Red Cross is in on the anti-Israel conspiracy. And the Israeli justice system.

You also kind of failed to explain to me why on Earth does it seem believable to you that Unicef has a hidden anti-Israel agenda. Not that I'm surprised.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

Fourth Geneva convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring it's civilian population into occupied territory. (Both the International Justice Court and the International Committee of the Red Cross have concluded that this applies to Palestinian territory.)

The supreme court of Israel itself has concluded (in 1979) that permanent settlements in Palestine territory are in violation of Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907.

But I'm sure the Red Cross is in on the anti-Israel conspiracy. And the Israeli justice system.

You also kind of failed to explain to me why on Earth does it seem believable to you that Unicef has a hidden anti-Israel agenda. Not that I'm surprised.

It's not occupying if you're taking land back that belonged to you 18 years ago. The law also forbids transferring your population in. It doesn't mention your population voluntarily moving into land under your control. Land exchanges hands all the time in wars.

Edit: I've never mentioned UNICEF once, and I'm not sure what your obsession with them is. However, there Anti-Israel bias does affect people, people in Africa. Countless people in Africa have starved to death because UNICEF is giving all of their resources to the Palestinians, who are statistically one of the most obese populations on the planet:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=238_1406451164

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Israel claiming rights to land stolen from their people in 1949... Great! When do Israelis leave the Arab towns they stole in 1949?

Man some of the mental gymnastics people go through to defend illegal Israeli action is shocking.

No...the Palestinians lost it in a war, where they tried to destroy Israel. Israel has no obligation to give land back to an invading force, and there is absolutely no precedent for that happening at any time.

We also had a population transfer. The Jews from all of the surrounding Arab countries were thrown from their countries. They don't get their land back, and they gave up land far greater than the size of Israel.

There are no mental gymnastics here. These are facts. The only gymnastics that are going on are tho ones used to create this idea that all the land in the West Bank belongs to Palestinians. The UN has created a separate definition of refugee, a separate definition of what a border is, and a separate judiciary to oversee all of this. And all of this is backed by countries like Saudia Arabia who have zero concept of human rights but own a lot of oil. It's absolutely absurd.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

So reading Blankall's posts has made me realize something:

If, in the future, the power balance turns and it is the Palestinians with overwhelming military power to do what they want, when they want, then I'll be defending the Israelis.

Blankall, if he remains consistent with the logic he has displayed on this board, will have to support the position of the Palestinians.

Would be really interesting to watch. Although I think I know what would happen.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

So reading Blankall's posts has made me realize something:

If, in the future, the power balance turns and it is the Palestinians with overwhelming military power to do what they want, when they want, then I'll be defending the Israelis.

Blankall, if he remains consistent with the logic he has displayed on this board, will have to support the position of the Palestinians.

Would be really interesting to watch. Although I think I know what would happen.

If the Palestinians had that power right now, there would be no Israelis. So you wouldn't have to worry about who's side to support, as there would be no conflict.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are no mental gymnastics here.

Yes, UN is partially backed by Saudi Arabia. It's also partially backed by Finland. Oh the horror.

I'd like to see your Yurchenko vault next.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

No...the Palestinians lost it in a war, where they tried to destroy Israel. Israel has no obligation to give land back to an invading force, and there is absolutely no precedent for that happening at any time.

We also had a population transfer. The Jews from all of the surrounding Arab countries were thrown from their countries. They don't get their land back, and they gave up land far greater than the size of Israel.

There are no mental gymnastics here. These are facts. The only gymnastics that are going on are tho ones used to create this idea that all the land in the West Bank belongs to Palestinians. The UN has created a separate definition of refugee, a separate definition of what a border is, and a separate judiciary to oversee all of this. And all of this is backed by countries like Saudia Arabia who have zero concept of human rights but own a lot of oil. It's absolutely absurd.

So is the West Bank part of Israel then? What do you propose happens to the 2.5 million Palestinians there?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by blankall

If the Palestinians had that power right now, there would be no Israelis. So you wouldn't have to worry about who's side to support, as there would be no conflict.

That is actually an extremely bigoted comment.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

If the Palestinians had that power right now, there would be no Israelis. So you wouldn't have to worry about who's side to support, as there would be no conflict.

I love how you don't dispute my post, but rather trot out a trope.

Tribalism is great isn't it? And here I thought it only applied to sports teams...

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Itse

That is actually an extremely bigoted comment.

What's interesting is that over the last decade, it's been pretty much acceptable in the US to say horrible things about Muslims and people from the Middle East. You can call them primitive, you can shout insults at them, the government can spy on them without reason, you can stop them from building community centers and places of worship, you can call them all bloodthirsty killers, etc... etc...

It's the new form of acceptable bigotry and racism.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by blankall

Edit: I've never mentioned UNICEF once, and I'm not sure what your obsession with them is.

How does it not surprise me that you are so clueless.

You said that UN uses it's schools as support centers for Hamas. Since Unicef and UNRWA are specifically the parts of UN that run those schools, you are basically saying Unicef is a part of this anti-Israel operation that you're talking about.

Yes, all those people who instead of living comfortable lives in their home countries have chosen to go to Gaza, they're not really there to run the schools and help the children. They're there to support Hamas.

That makes absolutely perfect sense.

However, there Anti-Israel bias does affect people, people in Africa. Countless people in Africa have starved to death because UNICEF is giving all of their resources to the Palestinians, who are statistically one of the most obese populations on the planet:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=238_1406451164

The amount of rampant paranoia is just insane behind that link.

"Far left and antisemitic activists often claim that Israel cuts off food and other humanitarian supplies to Gaza "

Yes, only far left and antisemitic activists are saying that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...y-is-Gaza.html

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Itse

Oh my god, you are truly insane. Have you SEEN the Palestinians?

Re: Palestinians / weight

Don't bother. This came up before and I posted many papers documenting the relationship between food security and weight. I got a reply within 5 minutes (meaning the papers were not read), about how the papers were wrong.

Yup.

[Itse]

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much done with this topic again.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much done with this topic again.

Now you know how the Palestinians feel when they try to negotiate with the hardliners in Israel.

[jonesy]

i know the post modern illumination favours bringing any topic out for 'dialogue' but i wonder if anyone has EVER changed their mind based on the discussion. Would seem rare. Seems to just cement people into their already formed mindset.