This is my problem with all the introverts in this thread. They are all saying that as long as the activity is on their terms, they are OK with attending it. If it is not on their terms, makes them slightly uncomfortable or they don't like it, they shouldn't have to go. Full Stop.
FWIW I appreciate your replies pylon..... personally I am learning a lot from this thread.
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I show up for work an hour early almost every day, and stay as late as I have to to make sure the work gets done. While the introvert guy is at home doing his introverted things, I am sometimes still sitting here at 11pm, making my company money. That is why I am a manager at my company, and he is not.
I do that too, but I'm usually on CP. It's all about face time and making sure your boss sees you when he arrives and as he leaves.
Only partially joking.
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I love this assumption being made by some that every extrovert in the workplace is a coke snorting, booze swilling party animal.
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While the introvert guy is at home doing his introverted things, I am sometimes still sitting here at 11pm, making my company money. That is why I am a manager at my company, and he is not.
Who's making an assumption now? What makes you think introverts cannot also be model employees who are willing to put in extra time and go above and beyond? Research shows that introverted people tend to be conscientious, have very high standards for their work, and are dedicated to always meeting their assigned deadlines.
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Being a social outcast gives you a massive handicap of ever becoming an executive or manager. If you cannot communicate with people properly, and are shy, you will not get respect. Maybe in IT or engineering. But any company that has a public face in the community, you are never going to lead it.
Once again, you're making incorrect assumptions. Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a social outcast or are shy or cannot communicate with people properly. One of the most common fears -- among both introverts and extroverts alike -- is public speaking. And yet I, very much an introvert, feel completely at ease speaking in front of a large group of people. Introverts can also be very effective communicators, particularly in writing.
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This is my problem with all the introverts in this thread. They are all saying that as long as the activity is on their terms, they are OK with attending it. If it is not on their terms, makes them slightly uncomfortable or they don't like it, they shouldn't have to go. Full Stop.
No, we're only asking that you meet us half-way. Show a little empathy and consideration for the introverted employees in your organization. You know they don't enjoy crowded environments with large groups and loud noises, so choose a few social events each year (not all of them!) that are more to their liking.
Personal anecdote: since workplace social committees are usually dominated by outgoing extroverted types (who naturally choose activities they enjoy on behalf of the entire organization), I volunteered for my company's committee in an attempt to bring change from within. I wasn't going to shoot down every activity the extroverts proposed, but I did want a few events that would be enjoyable by the introverted employees (of which there are many in my organization). Every. Single. One. of my ideas was voted down by the extroverted majority on the committee in favour of activities they preferred like karaoke night and salsa dance lessons.
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If you are on a TEAM at work, and have a TEAM builder, you should attempt to go even if you don't want to.
Doing thing that aren't in your best interest but the TEAM's best interest is one of the main characteristics of being on a successful TEAM.
Personally its sounds like you are a bit of a chicken and your boss was even going out of his way to allow you to be included even offering paid time off.
Grow a pair if you don't want to go and tell them when asked. Just don't complain and bitch on this board when someone else gets promoted, etc and you don't understand why!
Personal anecdote: since workplace social committees are usually dominated by outgoing extroverted types (who naturally choose activities they enjoy on behalf of the entire organization), I volunteered for my company's committee in an attempt to bring change from within. I wasn't going to shoot down every activity the extroverts proposed, but I did want a few events that would be enjoyable by the introverted employees (of which there are many in my organization). Every. Single. One. of my ideas was voted down by the extroverted majority on the committee in favour of activities they preferred like karaoke night and salsa dance lessons.
The bolded part kinda proves a point. I am not saying it is a fair point, but it proves one.
Take out social committee events, and trade that for negotiating for venture Capital, or negotiating a contract with a vendor, a salary roll back with an employee, the re-branding of your corporate image.... etc.
Sometimes you need the brash, loudmouth, take no prisoners type at the top to handle these types of things. I have seen people with an unpopular ideas sway the vote of an entire room using straight up brute force A-type personality and salesmanship traits to get exactly what they want.
That's the guy you want running a company in most cases, because he can leverage those skills for his employer.
The bolded part kinda proves a point. I am not saying it is a fair point, but it proves one.
Take out social committee events, and trade that for negotiating for venture Capital, or negotiating a contract with a vendor, a salary roll back with an employee, the re-branding of your corporate image.... etc.
Sometimes you need the brash, loudmouth, take no prisoners type at the top to handle these types of things. I have seen people with an unpopular ideas sway the vote of an entire room using straight up brute force A-type personality and salesmanship traits to get exactly what they want.
That's the guy you want running a company in most cases, because he can leverage those skills for his employer.
There's definitely a place for bull-in-a-China-shop personalities within companies, but I strongly disagree that they're the only type of people you want in the ranks of executive management. Once again, I refer you to the anecdotal examples of Gates, Buffett, and Zuckerberg, all of whom lead (or led) mega-successful companies despite the "character weaknesses" (in your view) of being quiet, contemplative, deep-thinking introverts.
You're also looking at the world through an exclusively North American-centric lens. In Japanese corporate culture, for example, the type of personalities you idealize as great business leaders are actually looked down upon. In fact, it's extremely common for executives in Japanese corporations to be the INTJ (introverted) Myers-Briggs type at a rate very disproportionate to their distribution in the population.
The bolded part kinda proves a point. I am not saying it is a fair point, but it proves one.
Take out social committee events, and trade that for negotiating for venture Capital, or negotiating a contract with a vendor, a salary roll back with an employee, the re-branding of your corporate image.... etc.
Sometimes you need the brash, loudmouth, take no prisoners type at the top to handle these types of things. I have seen people with an unpopular ideas sway the vote of an entire room using straight up brute force A-type personality and salesmanship traits to get exactly what they want.
That's the guy you want running a company in most cases, because he can leverage those skills for his employer.
I don't really know where I fit on the extro/intro vert spectrum. If I were to guess I would say that I am really introverted. I have done some things that would be really extroverted such as run for public office, and at times my profession has me in some extroverted situations, but I wouldn't say I am comfortable. I skip a lot of more social engagements to avoid those situations actually. I am relatively terrible at networking, and making small talk is painful and I absolutely can't do it. A few weeks ago I was at an event with a couple hundred people in another city. I knew a few others there, but not well and due to circumstances beyond my control, I had to find a place to sit amongst others. For some people that's no big deal; strike up a conversation, have a seat next to your new best friend. It was torture. I wandered around and basically did anything I could do avoid having to do this. I did find a seat, but I totally took the easy way out. I sat at an empty table and made other people come to me. I would guess that any extroverted person reading this probably has no idea how stressing that scenario was for me, but there you are.
The reason I quoted you here pylon is because of the business implications. I have my own business and basically anyone who is self employed has to sell themselves at least a chunk of the time. I have sat in high pressure meetings for investments and watched the extra aggressive guy full of bravado go about their business. It's amusing at times, actually. Most of the time I am the quiet guy at the boardroom table, but that doesn't mean that I don't recognize what's going on, or that the hard sell, aggressive strategy wins the day everytime. In fact you know what the hard sell leads to in the real world? A lot of consumers buying things to pacify someone and later returning those items. Or committing to something only to not want to follow through because they felt pressured. I know its not every time. But there is a fine line between assertion and aggression.
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You're also looking at the world through an exclusively North American-centric lens. In Japanese corporate culture, for example, the type of personalities you idealize as great business leaders are actually looked down upon. In fact, it's extremely common for executives in Japanese corporations to be the INTJ (introverted) Myers-Briggs type at a rate very disproportionate to their distribution in the population.
Just going to add onto this and state that the introverted nature you speak of may also be advantageous in certain North American structures as well. Japanese corporate culture is extremely formal (job interviews even use the most formal of personal pronouns if memory serves) and I would suspect that some of the traits that make you successful in Japanese corporations would be beneficial in more regimented North American corporate cultures. Granted, this ignores the reasons of exactly why INTJs find success in Japanese structure, something that involves an investigation of Japanese culture as a whole, but I would not doubt that some skills and traits of successful individuals may be transferable between the two groups.
By the way...as an INTJ, I'm kind of enthused that they dominate the Japanese corporate ladder . Interesting that the "rationals" tend to dominate both structures though...isn't it the highly driven ENTJ that are associated with high end job positions in North America?
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I really hate work functions on my personal time too, but you gotta just go for it as long as it doesn't get too invasive, 80% of the other people there are thinking the same thing as you... wish I was with my family or friends. Also not sure that I agree that the loud/outgoing people at work are always the harder workers or that it is a more desirable trait, as long as we're not talking extreme awkward introversion I don't think it's detrimental at all to your career in most industries.
It's more about what you say when you do speak then how much talking you do IMO.
By the way...as an INTJ, I'm kind of enthused that they dominate the Japanese corporate ladder . Interesting that the "rationals" tend to dominate both structures though...isn't it the highly driven ENTJ that are associated with high end job positions in North America?
High five to a fellow INTJ! Did you know that we're the rarest type of all, representing only 1-2% of the population?
Yes, ENTJ is the #1 type for CEOs in North America, although interestingly enough, INTJs are not far behind.
BTW, if anyone is interested in how differing leadership styles can be effective, I really like the example of General (and later President) Eisenhower (introvert, INTJ) and General Patton (extrovert, ESTP). Both were unquestionably great leaders, but their personalities couldn't have been more dissimilar. Eisenhower was cautious, calculated, extremely attentive to detail, and a strategic, big-picture thinker. Patton, on the other hand, was a brash and bold risk-taker. I don't know if this is a true story or just an urban legend, but I love this supposed exchange between them:
Order from Eisenhower:
"Bypass Trier. It will take four divisions to capture it."
Response from Patton:
"Have taken Trier with two divisions. What do you want me to do? Give it back?"
I am not saying one way is better than the other. There is a place for both types. In my career, it is pretty much a job requirement to be an A-type extrovert. I meet 5-10 strangers a day, and I have to be comfortable, talkative, amusing to the best of my ability and convincing. I also have to be able to control the conversation without appearing that way. If you cannot do that, you will not have any success doing what I do.
And yes it is a fine line as Slava said. Sometimes I have to be careful not to sell 'too much' or I end up with customers that feel ripped off or have buyers remorse. I see things from my industry which is automotive, and it is pretty much all extroverts on the front end, and mainly introverts on the back end (techs, parts guys etc....).
I am the scary guy in the corner office who does up your loan documents and sells you a bunch of add-ons. It is not for everybody, and it is not easy. The funny thing though, and it does give a nod to the introverted types. If I get the quiet, reserved guy with a spread sheet on his tablet, I will deal with that client very quietly and do very little talking besides what I have to. As I know getting all salesman'y on him, puts him out of his comfort zone.
In tech fields, engineering, arts.. etc, I can see how an introverted guy at the top would likely be a better leader. It is more about analytical and technical details. But in sales driven fields, the A-types rule the roost, as that personality trait is what got all the guys in charge to the top with both clients, and their employers. So yes, it is two different worlds.
This video is huge in high end sales and always makes the rounds. It basically shows you the ultimate extrovert. Guys like this actually exist out there, and I have been torn down by them before. I use it to motivate myself. But not to emulate Blake (Alec Baldwin). I watch this video at least once a month or when I am in a slump, and I put myself in the chair of one the salesmen in the room, pretending Blake is berating me. It is funny when you see this video played in a room full of people. The extroverts will always take it as a challenge, and the introverts will take it personally get all squirmy and upset.
edit: NSFW
and Baldwin should have won a best supporting Oscar for the role.
A few weeks ago I was at an event with a couple hundred people in another city. I knew a few others there, but not well and due to circumstances beyond my control, I had to find a place to sit amongst others. For some people that's no big deal; strike up a conversation, have a seat next to your new best friend. It was torture. I wandered around and basically did anything I could do avoid having to do this. I did find a seat, but I totally took the easy way out. I sat at an empty table and made other people come to me. I would guess that any extroverted person reading this probably has no idea how stressing that scenario was for me, but there you are.
Holy crap, I was literally in that exact situation a few years back. I was doing some consulting work for a Vancouver-based client. For most of the contract I could work from my office here in Calgary and communicate with the client remotely, but on a few occasions I had to travel to their location to meet in person. One such instance occurred on the day of their corporate Christmas party. The manager I was working with was the chair of their social committee, and since their office was shutting down at noon that day anyway, he invited me to come to the party. I would have much rather returned to my hotel or explored the streets of Vancouver by myself, but that's NOT an invitation you decline. Plus, the event was at the Four Seasons, so if nothing else, I knew I'd get a good meal out of it.
Being the conscientious, punctual person that I am, I showed up exactly on time. What I didn't know was that the meal was preceded by a mix & mingle cocktail hour. Since I was a consultant from out-of-town who was doing work with only a handful of employees at that organization, I knew literally NOBODY in the room (~500 people) and felt incredibly uncomfortable. I know exactly what you mean when you describe it as "torture". In the end, I just stood quietly next to the bar slowly sipping my drink.
I'm sure the extroverts reading this are judging both of us for wasting what could have been prime networking opportunities, but they have absolutely no idea how terrible being in that situation is to an introvert.
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If you are on a TEAM at work, and have a TEAM builder, you should attempt to go even if you don't want to.
Doing thing that aren't in your best interest but the TEAM's best interest is one of the main characteristics of being on a successful TEAM.
Personally its sounds like you are a bit of a chicken and your boss was even going out of his way to allow you to be included even offering paid time off.
Grow a pair if you don't want to go and tell them when asked. Just don't complain and bitch on this board when someone else gets promoted, etc and you don't understand why!
Holy crap, I was literally in that exact situation a few years back. I was doing some consulting work for a Vancouver-based client. For most of the contract I could work from my office here in Calgary and communicate with the client remotely, but on a few occasions I had to travel to their location to meet in person. One such instance occurred on the day of their corporate Christmas party. The manager I was working with was the chair of their social committee, and since their office was shutting down at noon that day anyway, he invited me to come to the party. I would have much rather returned to my hotel or explored the streets of Vancouver by myself, but that's NOT an invitation you decline. Plus, the event was at the Four Seasons, so if nothing else, I knew I'd get a good meal out of it.
Being the conscientious, punctual person that I am, I showed up exactly on time. What I didn't know was that the meal was preceded by a mix & mingle cocktail hour. Since I was a consultant from out-of-town who was doing work with only a handful of employees at that organization, I knew literally NOBODY in the room (~500 people) and felt incredibly uncomfortable. I know exactly what you mean when you describe it as "torture". In the end, I just stood quietly next to the bar slowly sipping my drink.
I'm sure the extroverts reading this are judging both of us for wasting what could have been prime networking opportunities, but they have absolutely no idea how terrible being in that situation is to an introvert.
I would thank this a million times if I could. I did that exact thing and just stood there like an idiot sipping my drink for what felt like an eternity.
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Being abusively extroverted is great and all so long as said person can actually handle all the details of the task at hand, which usually they cannot. Which is why being cerebral is so important regardless of being an introvert or extrovert (for the record, I can be both, in a weird bi-polar kind of way). In this case, tendering my resignation based simply on "this is not fun anymore" had my extroverted boss on the phone within 24 hours offering to double my pay along with a whole host of concessions I had been asking for for months.
What is more important than being introverted or extroverted, is being important. If you're the brains of something, then chances are that extroverted ####### jerk in reality actually NEEDS you, although they would be loathe to admit it publicly. And so long as you're comfortable in your knowledge of this, you can Dale Carnegie them into pretty much anything.
Sort of depends on what "unpaid" means. I mean sure, you aren't literally getting paid to golf for a few hours, or have a few drinks at the Christmas party, but a raise or a promotion is worth a lot more than a few hours of socializing.
So you definitely could be getting paid for attending an "unpaid" work event.
Like someone else said, people like to work with and be around people they like/are like. That's just the way it is. All things being equal, or even not completely equal, those calling the shots will call the shot for the person they actually know. And got drunk with.
It's like insider nepotism, and I'm sure we've all heard of or even benefited from it this kind of thing:.
"He just got the promotion because he's buddies with Bill..". It may be true (or untrue) and it may even be unfair, but he still got the promotion.
I personally don't think the introvert/extrovert thing matters as much as people say it does. There's some cases where it's advantageous to be an extrovert (sales), and others where a career path attracts and is suitable for introverts (accountants). What holds you back, from my experience, isn't the extrovert/introvert thing, but your attitude and ability. A bad attitude about things will certainly damage your career, and it can be reflected anywhere while at the office, including when it comes to social events. Not wanting to go to a work event is one thing and is acceptable, but showing disdain is what'll get people thinking the wrong things about you.
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Sorry, not much to add but after reading this thread I can be very thankful that I don't work in an office and/or need to rely on "team building" to further my career and income.
Just that phrase alone...."team building" makes my skin crawl. In my limited experience, that's been nothing but phoney, gob knobbling, BS that only rewarded lap dog employees who weren't deserving of anything more than an ass kicking anyway.
Different strokes for different folks. Do what you gotta do, but do what lets you sleep comfortably at night and feels good when you're paid, knowing you've done the best you can do at what you do.
Last edited by Buzzard; 08-28-2014 at 09:00 PM.
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. Interesting that the "rationals" tend to dominate both structures though...isn't it the highly driven ENTJ that are associated with high end job positions in North America?
Did you know that we're the rarest type of all, representing only 1-2% of the population?
