2014 Blue Jays Regular Season Thread

[Sylvanfan]

None of Bautista, Reyes, Cabrera, Encarnacion, Lind, Rasmus, or Lawrie have been able to play 140 games in consecutive seasons. That right there is a problem, their better players on this team who could more or less play every day get injured too much, and the depth to support them hasn't been good enough. I do think that they could use a personality make over too.

Trading Bautista at his age, likely isn't a bad move. His production is going to decline, and health is going to be a concern. His time to win as a contributing guy is within the next couple of years. Which I think is why he was so annoyed when the team didn't really do much at the deadline.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by evman150

It's amazing what good chemistry, good players, and some momentum can do for a team.

If you think a position player (Cano) can't have any effect on a pitching staff, you're out to lunch.

By the way, Jose is doing the defense no favours with his -1.4 dWAR this year, which accounts for almost half the entire team's dWAR of -3.1.

Yet with the best pitching in the AL in modern history the Mariners are only 3 games ahead of the terrible Blue Jays in the standings.

And don't get me wrong. The Blue Jays are broken, but to place that all on Bautista's attitude as a leader is ridiculous just because he argues balls and strikes with umpires.

The trades for Dickey, Reyes, etc were the start.

The team's dependence on the long ball for offense is another. (Especially lower in the line up with guys with low average who strike out a lot).

Having no pitching staff as already mentioned.

Have any teammates said anything about his attitude? Any leaks from inside the clubhouse?

Nope. Nothing.

You hear good stories about him helping out the young guys though, and being a good leader.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by evman150

Why has the Toronto starting staff become a graveyard for otherwise successful pitchers?

Who are these "otherwise successful pitchers"? Because Hutch & Stroman (who are basically rookies) haven't pitched anywhere else Buehrle & Happ each have a FIP in line with their career norms. So the only otherwise successful pitcher is Dickey... a 39 year old with a trick pitch that never played in the kind of offensive environment that exists in the AL East.

Originally Posted by evman150

Could it possibly be the toxic atmosphere surrounding the team?

Uh huh... if theirs a bad atmosphere around the team it's because they're losing. I think you have your cause and effect reversed.


... and your really going to credit Cano with improving pitching? Really? Not the fact that Safeco probably takes up half the landmass of Washington State? The Jays issue is a combination of mediocre starting pitching and injuries. The bats are good enough to overcome the pitching inadaquacies but when the bats are injured the jays don't have the depth to pull out wins (and they're not given the money to fix either problem).

[GirlySports]

Bautista is fine, I like a committed selfish player from time to time. And he's played 4 different positions.

But I do agree that chemistry is an issue and the team just can't grind out wins. When the Jays suicide squeezed the other day I fell off the couch. Why don't they do that more? Why does Rasmus pull everything, even if it's 2 feet off the outside corner?

The GM made bad decisions compounded by a terrible manager.

Chris Young was mentioned, here's a guy released by the Natinals in March. The Jays (and a bunch of other teams) probably thought he was not good enough to be picked up. He goes to Seattle, gets slotted in the 5th spot with no pressure and voila, he's good again.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Why does Rasmus pull everything, even if it's 2 feet off the outside corner?

That's not the question you should be asking. The question you should be asking is why is he even swinging at something 2 feet off the outside corner? Nothing wrong with trying to pull the ball... most hitters are pull hitters (hence the prevalence of defensive shifting over the past few years) and going the other way isn't something that most batters can just choose to do (throws off their timing). Rasmus pulling stuff isn't his issue, it's his terrible plate discipline.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The GM made bad decisions compounded by a terrible manager.

Gibby's not a bad manager, he's light years better then Farrall and retirement tour Cito at any rate. I'm conflicted about AA (although Beeston annoys the hell outta me... that guy is such a blatant corporate bootlicker it pisses me off).

Originally Posted by GirlySports

But I do agree that chemistry is an issue and the team just can't grind out wins. When the Jays suicide squeezed the other day I fell off the couch. Why don't they do that more?

Because often the suicide squeeze is a bad move.

While beloved by many small ball tactics generally aren't good. More often then not they rob teams of runs by surrendering outs... sometimes they're situationally the right tactic but in aggregate outs are more important then bases so you shouldn't trade one for the other.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Because often the suicide squeeze is a bad move.

While beloved by many small ball tactics generally aren't good. More often then not they rob teams of runs by surrendering outs... sometimes they're situationally the right tactic but in aggregate outs are more important then bases so you shouldn't trade one for the other.

The squeeze trades an out for a run, not just an out for a base. But you're right, it's almost always a bad play, mostly because big leaguers, in general, are brutal at bunting.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by evman150

The squeeze trades an out for a run, not just an out for a base. But you're right, it's almost always a bad play, mostly because big leaguers, in general, are brutal at bunting.

I was talking about small ball tactics in general at that point. Yes a squeeze tries to trade an out for a run... more often it ultimately trades an out for nothing (with a man on third no less).

The only time I ever like the bunt is when it's done against the shift (and even then I don't love it) and occasionally I like the batter to show bunt... keeps the defense honest.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by evman150

No, it just bugs me how worshiped he is Canada. Not without reason at all, of course, but without sufficient reason certainly.

Canadian baseball fans tend not to be as baseball-literate, and fall in love with flashy players like Jose. I just find it amusing when these same fans perpetually soul search for answers on why the team can't win.

I realize it's an incongruent notion - that your best player by any metric could be causing the team to lose - but this ignores the importance of chemistry in baseball.

Jose wins games with his bat, glove, and arm in the short term, but loses games with his mouth and attitude in the long term.

Look at what a guy like Cano has done in Seattle. Even with what for him is an off year, he has been able to transform that team from a bunch of ragtag nothings into what looks like a playoff team. He is the type of player that not only brings the stats, but also raises the level of play of those around him.

Jose brings the stats, but I believe he brings the rest of the team down with his attitude.

But by all means, ignore my opinion and keep soul searching for why the team sucks.

I'm pretty sure you lost all credibility right there. Baseball is a team sport, one player does not a team make.

But keep going with this vendetta against a "me-first" player like Jose Bautista.

He is not without fault but I'd hardly point the finger directly at him for the success/failure of this team.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Pagal4321

I'm pretty sure you lost all credibility right there. Baseball is a team sport, one player does not a team make.

But keep going with this vendetta against a "me-first" player like Jose Bautista.

He is not without fault but I'd hardly point the finger directly at him for the success/failure of this team.

You are probably a Canadian baseball fan though - which apparently means you are likely illiterate when it comes to the topic at hand.

[SuperMatt18]

The funny thing with Seattle is that you could argue that their ownerships groups commitment to spending money (re-upping Felix, signing Cano, Rodney, Young, Bloomqusist, Hart and acquiring Morrison) is what caused the turn around and increased team confidence this year.

It is those efforts to improve the team that Bautista was dissapointed the Blue Jays did not do, and what he complained about leading to the shouts of "bad attitude". (Although the Mariners are still spending ~ $40 million less than the Jays, and that is on AA's inability to build a winning team with that salary).

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I was talking about small ball tactics in general at that point. Yes a squeeze tries to trade an out for a run... more often it ultimately trades an out for nothing (with a man on third no less).

The only time I ever like the bunt is when it's done against the shift (and even then I don't love it) and occasionally I like the batter to show bunt... keeps the defense honest.

But that's what makes a manager great or not.. when to use what tactic at what time. Jays just leave too many men on base.. sometimes in a close game, you should just play for a run.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Pagal4321

I'm pretty sure you lost all credibility right there. Baseball is a team sport, one player does not a team make.

But keep going with this vendetta against a "me-first" player like Jose Bautista.

He is not without fault but I'd hardly point the finger directly at him for the success/failure of this team.

It's about changing the culture of a team. One player can do that. In Jose's case, he brings the team down; in Cano's case, he brings them up.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

You are probably a Canadian baseball fan though - which apparently means you are likely illiterate when it comes to the topic at hand.

I didn't think it was that controversial a statement. Doesn't the average American fan know less about hockey?

I will readily admit I know less about hockey, the sport itself, than most of this forum.

There's no need to get defensive.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

But that's what makes a manager great or not.. when to use what tactic at what time.

Sure... I just don't think that Gibby makes the wrong call that often. The guy's not the best manager in the game today (Madden for my money) but I think he's above average and certainly not terrible. Better then Farrall and better then Cito.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by evman150

It's about changing the culture of a team. One player can do that. In Jose's case, he brings the team down; in Cano's case, he brings them up.

Again what proof is there of this.

I would buy that Dickey, Reyes etc are bringing the team down (big tickets, lots of hype, no on field performance).

But what has Bautista done in any way that you could say brings the team down?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by evman150

I didn't think it was that controversial a statement. Doesn't the average American fan know less about hockey?

Yes, so? They're not equivalent situations... IMO Baseball doesn't occupy the same spot in the sports heirarcy in Canada as hockey does in the states.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by evman150

It's about changing the culture of a team. One player can do that. In Jose's case, he brings the team down; in Cano's case, he brings them up.

I'd love to see you quantify that with something...anything tangible. I would argue that Bautista has had the exact opposite effect that you are implying as a clubhouse figure.

I haven't seen this kind of "witch hunt" mentality on this board since...well I can't even remember that far back.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Again what proof is there of this.

I would buy that Dickey, Reyes etc are bringing the team down (big tickets, lots of hype, no on field performance).

But what has Bautista done in any way that you could say brings the team down?

It's my belief. That's all. Of course there's no evidence, I just don't like his attitude during the games, off the field, and I don't like how he plays the game.

Originally Posted by Parallex

Yes, so? They're not equivalent situations... IMO Baseball doesn't occupy the same spot in the sports heirarcy in Canada as hockey does in the states.

I'm not sure whether you think it's above or below. In my opinion, the analogy is a pretty good one. But whatever, it doesn't really matter.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by evman150

It's about changing the culture of a team. One player can do that. In Jose's case, he brings the team down; in Cano's case, he brings them up.

Do you honestly believe that this team is better without Bautista? If you subtract him from the lineup, is it a net positive for the team?

[evman150]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Do you honestly believe that this team is better without Bautista? If you subtract him from the lineup, is it a net positive for the team?

No, because he's already had his negative impact. Take him and his impact away altogether though - yes, I think the team is better today.

Swap Cano and Bautista, and I think you'd see a huge difference though.