Dilemma: Supporting the Calgary Flames after Mount Polley mine disaster

[Red_Baron]

So many conclusions of neglegence have been made with zero evidence. I have followed Imperial metals and know many people who have and currently do work for them. They are not the band of criminals that this thread has made them out to be. They have been a very steady company that has performed well in a sector that has struggled mightily in the last 3 years.
The people in charge are highly respected in the mining industry and they are shocked and saddened that this had happened. The board of directors are not the guys engineering or monitoring the tailings dam and until the root cause is determined, it is pretty low to throw people or the company as a whole under the bus. If the mines inspectors had seen anything out of line with the tailings dam prior to this, you can bet your a__ that it would have been picked up by the media.
For all we know this failure may be caused by something that has not been forseen in the mining industry before and the changes that will come from this have the potential to ensure safer tailings dams in the future. If this one accident is too high of a price to pay to keep making the electronics that all these posts are written from or for any other item made out of metals of any kind, then by all means, boycott all companies mining around the world.

awesome autocorrect malfunctions brought to you by tapatalk

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

It's not that it happened in my face. And it's your face too. You live in this country.

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I guess my goal is to have the business I support (NHL) know that it makes it difficult for me to support them when the actions/investments of their ownership group negatively impact me and the place where I live, where we all live.

It doesn't make sense for me to write a university I've never been too, or a mountain I've never skied. The reason that I feel I can write the NHL is because I'm a consumer of their product, and I believe they care about their consumers.

.

You did kind of imply that this matters way more to you because it happened close to you.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

If you can live your life in a world where someone can own a company and somehow not be affiliated with it, than so be it. I don't think it's silly to ask myself as a consumer if I should support a business who's ownership does something I am against.

The Calgary Flames are not Imperial Metals.

Even so, the profits still line the pockets of Edwards. I don't think that's a silly connection to make. That's just the reality of the situation.

If I support the Flames financially (at all) then I'm supporting Edwards financially (not that he'd ever need my money). If I support Edwards financially, that means I support him ethically, and until I see and hear the appropriate response from him, I'm not sure I can do that.

It's not emotions, its ethics. And I loved the last line of your comment, you must win a lot of schoolyard arguments with that one. "and no matter what you say next, I'm right!"

It's funny you say "this has nothing to do with the Flames" and then you say "find out everything Edwards is invested in and boycott it"... he owns the Flames... that's where the whole dilemma started... no?

Unless you are 100% self-sufficient and independent from the rest of the world, you are unable to separate yourself from things you ethically disagree with. You choose to draw the line at the Flames, your choice. But if I wanted I could pick apart most aspects of your life - and as good a set of choices that I think I make myself, you could pick them apart as well.

[blender]

Here's the thing:
Our whole world is connected.

How many people own shares in Imperial metals as part of mutual funds?

How much gold, copper and other materials have they (and other mining companies with worse environmental records) supplied to the market for use in smartphones and other devices in our pockets or the computers we are using to have this discussion?

How or why we support sports teams is our own business, and I'm not going to tell anyone how to spend their money or their time, but at the end of the day there are serious, deeply-rooted fundamental problems with how we as a species relate to our environment. Most people are ignorant of this.

Either you retreat to the hills and get right off the grid or you try and live in society in a self-sufficient and environmentally conscious manner or you just do whatever you want, but I don't think that supporting a sports team or not is much of a difference in the whole scheme of things.

Just my 2 cents; sorry if I'm ****ing up the thread.

[Kswiss]

Eve ate the apple, I hate you all!

As relevant as the argument of this thread.

[old-fart]

One can only assume that the OP has researched all companies he supports to see if they have any involvement, even tangentially, to any questionable practice or potential controversial issue.

I would suspect the OP never puts gas in any vehicle, never shops at a big box store, grows all his own food, doesn't support any medicine, etc.

Seriously, a bad thing happened. That sucks. Creating some correlation to a hockey team seems pretty silly to me.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Man the pile ons in this place are incredible. Give the OP a break, it was devastating news that impacted many people. It is natural to look for someone to blame in situations like this. We all react to stress in different ways, sometimes we even say things in the heat of the moment that we regret later. I don't see how running him through a gauntlet of snark helps anything.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Man the pile ons in this place are incredible. Give the OP a break, it was devastating news that impacted many people. It is natural to look for someone to blame in situations like this. We all react to stress in different ways, sometimes we even say things in the heat of the moment that we regret later. I don't see how running him through a gauntlet of snark helps anything.

He kind of brought it on himself. What did he expect when he posted about how he no longer wants to supports the Calgary Flames in a Calgary Flames fan forum? Not to mention the idea that the Flames are somehow connected to this is ridiculous in the first place. It's not like Murray Edwards personally and single handedly caused the disaster. In all likelihood he probably had nothing to do with what happened.

[Stupid]

I think I wouldn't be at a stage of making a decision yet. Accidents happen and it will be very telling to see how they deal with the situation after it's happened. If they go above and beyond to repair the situation then that's good, right?

So this could also be something you could try to do; you could try to pressure Edwards to tell the company he's the biggest shareholder in to do the right thing and not just do the bare minimums for example. Write him a letter laying out your situation and he might feel inclined to hear your story. Maybe your connection to the Flames can be of benefit here if you're having trouble reaching him.

[Arya Stark]

I wonder how difficult it was to support the Flames while your homeland enabled this mining and even profited from it from a government stand point and a personal standpoint from all your B.C buddies making big bucks at the mines.

If anything, I blame your homeland for this disaster and will take it out on Canuck fans because that makes as much sense as your OP.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by flameswin

You did kind of imply that this matters way more to you because it happened close to you.

What I meant was that it makes more sense for me to engage companies whose products I consume, as opposed to those that I don't. I didn't mean to imply location by that comment.

Originally Posted by the2bears

Unless you are 100% self-sufficient and independent from the rest of the world, you are unable to separate yourself from things you ethically disagree with. You choose to draw the line at the Flames, your choice. But if I wanted I could pick apart most aspects of your life - and as good a set of choices that I think I make myself, you could pick them apart as well.

You may find it extremely difficult to disconnect yourself from things you disagree with ethically, but that doesn't absolve you from trying.

Originally Posted by old-fart

One can only assume that the OP has researched all companies he supports to see if they have any involvement, even tangentially, to any questionable practice or potential controversial issue.

I would suspect the OP never puts gas in any vehicle, never shops at a big box store, grows all his own food, doesn't support any medicine, etc.

Seriously, a bad thing happened. That sucks. Creating some correlation to a hockey team seems pretty silly to me.

I don't know why everyone wants to paint me as a hypocrite. I simply try my best. Some of you make it sound like its a joke to even try. I don't put gas in my bike, I shop at the farmers market, I avoid big box stores, but I don't see why I have to to be concerned about a major environmental disaster. You can fly in an airplane and still have concern for the planet you are hovering above.

Yea, it's a bad thing that happened (worst in Can. history bad). Financed by the guy who finances this team. That's where the whole thing started. If you can separate his interests then I'm glad for you. For me, I'm having a hard time with it.

Originally Posted by N-E-B

He kind of brought it on himself. What did he expect when he posted about how he no longer wants to supports the Calgary Flames in a Calgary Flames fan forum? Not to mention the idea that the Flames are somehow connected to this is ridiculous in the first place. It's not like Murray Edwards personally and single handedly caused the disaster. In all likelihood he probably had nothing to do with what happened.

I didn't say that I no longer want to support the Flames. The point was that I want to continue supporting my team.

I'm getting the impression that the general posting public feels Murray Edwards is in no way responsible for the disaster caused by his company, and I just don't agree.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

You may find it extremely difficult to disconnect yourself from things you disagree with ethically, but that doesn't absolve you from trying.

The point is you can't disconnect yourself from everything. Start with the things you can, take effective action, and realize that unless you go completely off grid and grow all your own food you'll be making compromises along the way.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

I doubt Murray Edwards is responsible, I know the Flames are not responsible. Thymebalm, this is not to pile on, but I do think you are somewhat misguided in your anger. Canadian law does impose upon directors and officers of companies a high duty to act ethically and to disclose material information once known. Those parties could be held criminally responsible if they fail in their duties. A shareholder does not typically have those duties. They invest in companies of their choosing and will not suffer any adverse consequence, other than potentially losing their investment. Of course a shareholder could also be a director or officer of a company. For Edwards, he has lost significant funds (for us regular folks), but I don't think he is a director, and as such, did not control the management of that company. If I am incorrect, then perhaps he could be held responsible, but it would be way too early to draw those sorts of conclusions.

[Josh]

This is one of the more amusing threads that I've come across for the 10+ years I've been a part of this forum. For that, I would like to thank the OP.

Also, I'd like to thank you for reinforcing the stereotype I already had of BC residents. If you want to stop being a fan, do it quietly. No one here should care nor try to talk you out of it.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I didn't say that I no longer want to support the Flames. The point was that I want to continue supporting my team.



I'm getting the impression that the general posting public feels Murray Edwards is in no way responsible for the disaster caused by his company, and I just don't agree.

The only thing I don't really feel you've answered (that I'm honestly just curious about) is why now?

Murray didn't cause the spill. Everyone knows that, but he was financially involved with the company that did. That's undeniable.

That much I understand. I gather that you're upset that Murray is involved with a company that can have a negative environmental impact. This however, isn't new or different than anything that has been happening for more than a decade. That's where you lose me.

He has more involvement than anyone in the oilsands. Tailing ponds are nothing new to him, and have been destroying the environment in Northern Alberta for years.

So why now? You said it wasn't about it being close to you, so why haven't the critically damaging oilsands, which Murray has been far more personally involved in than Imperial Metals, been the source of your moral dilemma?

[flamesfan6]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

http://globalnews.ca/news/1496838/mo...urray-edwards/

This article gets at what I'm trying to say.

No, no it is not saying what you are trying to say. It is saying for Edwards himself to sell off his shares or something since he is the direct owner of those shares of the company. That he needs to do something about it since he is part owner. Nowhere does it say that the flames, nhl, or anyone not named edwards and not tied to the company is responsible for anything.

What you were trying to say is that the NHL and Flames were somehow also responsible. Your logic is failing so much at that level. The flames and NHL have 0 anything for this mine issue, and 0 responsibility.

if the 36% ownership was titled to the 'Calgary flames' it would be a different story, but hey, it's not.

Emailing the NHL or flames about this is as useful as me going to the prime minister and asking for immunity on all future crimes I do, there is absolutely 0 logic to this reasoning.

[Hackey]

The amount of people focused on the BC vs Alberta BS is unreal. Something like this happens and that is your focus? You basically proved him right. He didn't come in here attacking anyone. No malicious intent. He was and has been honest and open this whole time. Some people need to get their heads out of their asses. This thread is a prime example of why people in general can never work together for the betterment of everyone. Every aspect of our lives has to be turned into "Us" vs "Them."

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The amount of people focused on the BC vs Alberta BS is unreal. Something like this happens and that is your focus? You basically proved him right. He didn't come in here attacking anyone. No malicious intent. He was and has been honest and open this whole time. Some people need to get their heads out of their asses. This thread is a prime example of why people in general can never work together for the betterment of everyone. Every aspect of our lives has to be turned into "Us" vs "Them."

you didnt read his OP before he edited it then. He did exactly that, which is why some posters have focused on it.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The amount of people focused on the BC vs Alberta BS is unreal. Something like this happens and that is your focus? You basically proved him right. He didn't come in here attacking anyone. No malicious intent. He was and has been honest and open this whole time. Some people need to get their heads out of their asses. This thread is a prime example of why people in general can never work together for the betterment of everyone. Every aspect of our lives has to be turned into "Us" vs "Them."

We didn't start the us vs them. I think many people are generally tired of the attitude in BC that they are angelic stewards of the land, and the red plates are some menacing force of destruction. Just look at the ridiculous attempts to pin this disaster elsewhere. Obviously British Columbia couldn't be responsible for a terrible environmental accident. This must be Alberta's fault, because that's where 1/3 of the money came from. A lot of people need to drive past Hope or North to see how supernatural things really are.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by fotze

This is what I've had trouble wrapping my head around when pipelines leak, etc.

Any heavy handed legislation will pale to the actual damage and cleanup. If $400MM is the estimate now (and those always go up), then this will kill the company, its only worth $700MM. Not sure how you could legislate this and things like this. Maybe jail time could be an added incentive?

Maybe force companies to have insurance for these things?

But I see it like the death penalty as a deterrent. I just don't think it will make a difference.

You're absolutely right. I once worked for this fairly large sized concrete company that was riddled with government authorities down their throat. OHS, WCB, Alberta Transportation, COR, and Employement standards. I remember telling the owner that AB transportation issued us a fine ($2500,00) for hours of service violations because we were scheduling drivers for long days, even up to 20 hours straight.

His response was that he made 100X that amount since the last fine and will make another 100X until the next time.

If capitalism worked in society's interest, we wouldn't need government agencies. They need to crack down and put someone behind jail more. Its like the token firing - it buys compliance for at least another day.