ISIS militants attack and take over Iraqi northern city of Mosul

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

This isn't remotely true. The biggest arab powers, the Saudis, are strong US allies. So are the Egyptians and Jordanians. If the US gave up support for Israel, groups like ISIS would still besobsand still want to kill Americans. Americans would not want to appease those groups anyways.

Saudi is not a US ally, it's royal family likes our money but the country is the birthplace of Islamic extremism, the average Saudi hates everything the west stands for, Jordan and Egypt are not much better, given the relative instability of all of these countries they are just as likely to be implacable enemies in a few months time.
You make a huge mistake thinking the thugs in charge of a country are either telling the truth or represent their people.

As long as we can blow them to hell or buy their oil they will acquiesce but that doesn't mean they like us.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by T@T

And allow me to expand, if human kind knew there was no afterlife, no heaven and no 72 virgins they might just try to be nicer and live longer.

Religion makes people do very stupid things.

I would like to agree but I've seen someone kicked into a coma because he was a Millwall fan.
Religion is just an expression of our need to be in a pack, personally I am just grateful we don't eat each other much these days.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by nik-

Just because it happens and has happened before, doesn't mean it's not evil. Your second assumption is just laughable, but actually kind of sad. I'm not even sure what you're trying to accomplish there.

I'll give you my favourite example of "what is evil, anyway?" I hope it helps you see my point.

After the Finnish civil war the winning side executed or just flat out murdered something like 20,000 people from the losing side. Relative to our population at the time, that rates pretty high in all time genocide lists. The war was over after all, they had surrendered.

Were the people doing it "evil"? I have a really hard time seeing it that way, because after those events the violence stopped and those people turned Finland into a really good place to live by any reasonable standard, and I can't see Evil people doing that.

Was the act evil? Yeah, I'd say so. But even an extreme evil act does not make evil people.

Furthermore, it is said that killing all the "reds" was a deliberate choice, done mainly to stabilize the country. Was it really necessary? Nobody can say because we can't test the other option, but what we do know is that the country has been really stable since. Is the motive on excuse? Not really, otherwise we'd have to excuse Hitler too.

But it does make the question of "evil" somewhat complicated.

It doesn't take evil people to do evil things, especially in a war.

The existence of an act in previous wars doesn't render the act "not evil".

I agree, but if an act can be described both as "evil" and "typical in those circumstances", I think it follows that the people committing those acts are more likely to be "normal" rather than "evil".

Of course some people say that the fact that normal people often do evil things means that people are evil by nature. It's a philosophical position I don't personally hold, but I can see why some do.

That said, if all people are evil, then doesn't that make the whole concept of "evil people" rather meaningless? (Which of course is exactly the conclusion a lot of people have drawn.)

To get back to the point, ISIS doing evil things does not mean that ISIS is in itself evil. It mostly just means that ISIS is fighting in a civil war.


Does it make those specific executions okay? No, but then again I have no context in which to evaluate what happened. What I saw was people shooting people, and not in any particularly gruesome way. Maybe the people needed to be executed for there to be less fighting? I don't know.

Of course if you think that using dead bodies to instill fear is particularly evil, I'm not going to say you're wrong, but to me a dead body is just an object. You generally can't do evil things to objects. (Doing things to a body it can make me call a person sick though.)

For me to call people evil, they would have to do things that are seriously unnecessarily cruel. Torture for example is IMO evil.

In Afghanistan some warlords murdered whole villages by locking them up in metal crates that they left out in the sun. That was evil.

[nik-]

Well, I disagree, but I'm not going to bother discussing it any further. You want to split a hair to be able to state ISIS isn't evil. You're welcome to do so, I just happen to think you're very wrong.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I would like to agree but I've seen someone kicked into a coma because he was a Millwall fan.
Religion is just an expression of our need to be in a pack, personally I am just grateful we don't eat each other much these days.

No, religion was created so the masses could be controlled. the only expression needed is to act like sheep.

FYI, human kind should be beyond the need to be controlled.

Just my opinion.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by T@T

No, religion was created so the masses could be controlled. the only expression needed is to act like sheep.

FYI, human kind should be beyond the need to be controlled.

Just my opinion.

Religion is a product of humanity's desire for there to be something more and to fill a knowledge void to explain their surroundings. Mass organized religion through the middle ages is more alongside what you're saying, but that's not why it was created.

[T@T]

No such thing as "evil"

There's good,bad and really stupid on a five star scale.

ISIS

BAD = *****
STUPID = *****

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'll give you my favourite example of "what is evil, anyway?" I hope it helps you see my point.

After the Finnish civil war the winning side executed or just flat out murdered something like 20,000 people from the losing side. Relative to our population at the time, that rates pretty high in all time genocide lists. The war was over after all, they had surrendered.

Were the people doing it "evil"? I have a really hard time seeing it that way, because after those events the violence stopped and those people turned Finland into a really good place to live by any reasonable standard, and I can't see Evil people doing that.

Was the act evil? Yeah, I'd say so. But even an extreme evil act does not make evil people.

Furthermore, it is said that killing all the "reds" was a deliberate choice, done mainly to stabilize the country. Was it really necessary? Nobody can say because we can't test the other option, but what we do know is that the country has been really stable since. Is the motive on excuse? Not really, otherwise we'd have to excuse Hitler too.

But it does make the question of "evil" somewhat complicated.

It doesn't take evil people to do evil things, especially in a war.



I agree, but if an act can be described both as "evil" and "typical in those circumstances", I think it follows that the people committing those acts are more likely to be "normal" rather than "evil".

Of course some people say that the fact that normal people often do evil things means that people are evil by nature. It's a philosophical position I don't personally hold, but I can see why some do.

That said, if all people are evil, then doesn't that make the whole concept of "evil people" rather meaningless? (Which of course is exactly the conclusion a lot of people have drawn.)

To get back to the point, ISIS doing evil things does not mean that ISIS is in itself evil. It mostly just means that ISIS is fighting in a civil war.


Does it make those specific executions okay? No, but then again I have no context in which to evaluate what happened. What I saw was people shooting people, and not in any particularly gruesome way. Maybe the people needed to be executed for there to be less fighting? I don't know.

Of course if you think that using dead bodies to instill fear is particularly evil, I'm not going to say you're wrong, but to me a dead body is just an object. You generally can't do evil things to objects. (Doing things to a body it can make me call a person sick though.)

For me to call people evil, they would have to do things that are seriously unnecessarily cruel. Torture for example is IMO evil.

In Afghanistan some warlords murdered whole villages by locking them up in metal crates that they left out in the sun. That was evil.

I am sorry, but do you really believe this........

NSFW!

really don't open if you get upset easily

NSFW!

These are the actions of an evil entity.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Azure

Really? Do tell how the leaders of ISIS don't fully believe all the &^%$ they keep pushing as propaganda?

How do you know they do?

More importantly, how many of their supporters do?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I would like to agree but I've seen someone kicked into a coma because he was a Millwall fan.
.

I to believe soccer and soccer supports are evil.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by nik-

Religion is a product of humanity's desire for there to be something more and to fill a knowledge void to explain their surroundings. Mass organized religion through the middle ages is more alongside what you're saying, but that's not why it was created.

I had a discussion a while ago with a professor who teaches religion in Halifax at Dalhousie and his opinion was just about every religion starts out so a leader(s) could control, offering afterlife,heaven..etc is just part of the program.

Alex (can't remember his last name) was a cool dude, he never said it and because of family around I didn't ask but I suspected he was actually an atheist in sheeps clothes but teaches religion in university.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by nik-

Well, I disagree, but I'm not going to bother discussing it any further. You want to split a hair to be able to state ISIS isn't evil. You're welcome to do so, I just happen to think you're very wrong.

It's nice to see that you still wanted to belittle my way of thinking instead of simply accepting that it's different or you don't understand it.

For me, this is about as far from splitting hairs as you can get.

The distinction (or lack of distinction) between an evil act and an evil person is a really fundamental question in any persons philosophy.

The distinction between a normal person and an evil person is among the most important questions there are in any society and really among the most important questions for humanity in general.


As for Undercoverbrother, seriously? That's just what an execution squad looks like. Yeah, it's not pretty, but if you think that's some big evil, then you have spent way too much time watching sanitized Hollywood versions of war.

[nik-]

Oh I accept that your way of thinking is different, I just think it's wrong and I think the methods you use to make a distinction are odd.

A solitary evil act may not require an evil person. But series of evil acts after evil acts which is part of a philosophy makes an evil person.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

Really? Do tell how the leaders of ISIS don't fully believe all the &^%$ they keep pushing as propaganda?

It's rare that a true zealot ever actually attains and holds power.

The religion is for the plebes.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

Oh I accept that your way of thinking is different, I just think it's wrong and I think the methods you use to make a distinction are odd.

A solitary evil act may not require an evil person. But series of evil acts after evil acts which is part of a philosophy makes an evil person.

Is barbarism evil?

Like, were the Romans 'evil'?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

As for Undercoverbrother, seriously? That's just what an execution squad looks like. Yeah, it's not pretty, but if you think that's some big evil, then you have spent way too much time watching sanitized Hollywood versions of war.

Wow:

That's just what an execution squad looks like.

I am sorry, but to be that flippant, make me wonder what is wrong with you. Most sane people get upset, or disturbed when faced with a scene like that.

I know I was upset when I saw those pictures. You get that those are people in the pictures, correct? I would suggest you are the one that has watched too much "Hollywood versions of war". You appear desensitized to the death and suffering of others.

I have seen plenty of stuff first hand, and I have seen what people will do to each other. I have seen graves desecrated, dead bodies, houses destroyed, and more.

I suggest that maybe you should take a closer look to how you react to those photos, and ask if it is a correct reaction/response.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Is barbarism evil?

Like, were the Romans 'evil'?

I think if you exhort the execution of people for having different religious beliefs then you're evil. So maybe the Romans qualify? I don't really know if I want to go back through history and checking off people I think were evil. I just think ISIS is. I don't feel I'm saying anything radical here.

[Language]

Forgive me if this should be in the Israel/Hamas thread, but I find this somewhat applicable due to the extremist groups out there and the respective countries that fund them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0FJ2M820140714

The link above is an article regarding an $11 billion arms sale from the U.S. to Qatar. Meanwhile, Qatar is known to actively fund Hamas and provide safe refuge for key Hamas leaders. On the other hand, the U.S. is obviously a huge ally of Israel. The U.S. isn't going to turn away an arms sale of this magnitude.

It strikes me how intertwined and convoluted foreign relations are between countries and the extremist groups they back. I'm sure if one digs deep enough, the same can be said for whoever is funding ISIS.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think if you exhort the execution of people for having different religious beliefs then you're evil. So maybe the Romans qualify? I don't really know if I want to go back through history and checking off people I think were evil. I just think ISIS is. I don't feel I'm saying anything radical here.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious about the label of 'evil'.

I think it has a dehumanizing quality, as in "these guys are evil, let's drop bombs on them".

I think it's a little bit more complicated than bombing them to the stone age and salting the earth to prevent or stifle jihadism.

I don't know if these guys are any more 'evil', than some other bygone trapping of religious fanaticism. I don't think bombs and bullets is going to solve it though.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Itse

As for Undercoverbrother, seriously? That's just what an execution squad looks like. Yeah, it's not pretty, but if you think that's some big evil, then you have spent way too much time watching sanitized Hollywood versions of war.

Acts like what ISIS are doing were done by the germans in WWII, but lets not forget after the war a lot of these people were tried and hanged for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Nobody cares that you studied wars and the crimes committed...still barbaric.