Dilemma: Supporting the Calgary Flames after Mount Polley mine disaster

[Minnie]

Suppose he doesn't want to talk about the impact his cycling where he does, has on the environment around him...

He's going to have to quit himself, not just the Flames.

[Reggie28]

Originally Posted by heep223

See below. And yes, some of your mutual funds / ETFs may own it. Franklin, Blackrock, Elliot & Page, Vanguard, Invesco, BMO, Dimensional, Scotia etc etc are all fund management companies.

Note that Murray Edwards only owns 7.3% of this company. Does that change your view OP? Like others are saying, he has nothing to do with running the company and the kind of detail/decision-making that would lead to an environmental disaster like this. Like an earlier poster said, you may be better off joining a lobby group for better regulations as opposed to targeting 1 minority investor in 1 company who isn't involved in operations.

This is all public information btw.

Spoiler!

Edwards is the president and owner of Edco financial.

Bnn reporting Edwards owns about 36%

[Beatle17]

I think what Ricardow is getting at, is that forestry and forest fires in the world produce approximately 20% of the worlds Greenhouse Gas Emissions. Energy related industries, which include coal fired power plants to charge a persons electric cars and build solar panels produce 26% of the GHG's.

One industry, or province shouldn't hold itself as more caring than another. I know Thymebalm is concerned but everything can't be looked at in a bubble.

[Goriders]

From my experience when something goes wrong finger pointing doesn't really add any value. Other than allowing people to distance themselves from responsibility or making them feel good about themselves at someone else's expense.

Too much of that goes one in Canada these days. Interprovincial politics and national media seem to fuel it.

End result is Canada doesn't reach it's full potential, which is disgraceful.

Rant off.

But big picture, study what happened, document and create legislation to avoid it in the future, mitigate the aftermath a much as possible and if anyone was negligent hold them accountable.

But speculative finger pointing adds zero value per (above). Better to direct your energy to the areas I mentioned.

Leave the national divisive politics to the greasy politicians and media. That's what they're for.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

I'm trying to figure out what your end goal in this is.

Murray Edwards is an investor in Imperial Metals. He doesn't run the company, nor does he work for it in any way, he just writes the cheques hoping to get a return on investment. How can you genuinely blame him for the disaster?

How should the NHL hold an owner accountable for making an investment in a company that caused a disaster?

As said, he is one of the biggest players in the oil sands, so why stop supporting him now? The oil sands have done significantly more damage than this, so why now? What is different? Are the oil sands not a problem because they aren't your backyard?

Will you also be writing letters to Kicking Horse Resort? Nakiska? Fernie Alpine? The University of Saskatchewan?

I'm not trying to degrade the point you're trying to make, I just want to understand:

Why now? And why take it out on the Flames?

When I first posted, I didn't have an end goal in mind. I was upset and confused.

I guess my goal is to have the business I support (NHL) know that it makes it difficult for me to support them when the actions/investments of their ownership group negatively impact me and the place where I live, where we all live.

It doesn't make sense for me to write a university I've never been too, or a mountain I've never skied. The reason that I feel I can write the NHL is because I'm a consumer of their product, and I believe they care about their consumers.

I know Murray Edwards, despite being the controlling shareholder of the mine in question, is not the only person to blame. You can trust that I certainly didn't vote for the current government in power, one that was heavily financed by Edwards' many corporations. You can be sure that my political engagement will further increase following this disaster. I know there are a whole host of inspectors, engineers, lobbyists, bureaucrats who all contributed knowingly or unknowingly to the breach. Many heads will roll by the time the final report is written.

The reason I want to write the Flames and the league is because I want to know that they care about about the same things as me. That my support of their enterprise requires their support of the environment. I want them to know that the things their ownership does affect me and my ability to support them. Maybe it will spark an uptick in environmentalism within the league, maybe it will do nothing, but I think that is my goal presently.

I hope it's ok to say I'm still not 100% percent sure how all the pieces fit or how to make the most positive impact in the wake of a negative event. I just need to do something.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

thymebalm were you an activist in any way before this incident? You are angry at billionaires and Albertan's for supposedly not caring, but would you would have taken such a strong stance if this happened elsewhere?

Edwards has such a loose affiliation with this incident and it's far to early to start drawing conclusions anyways. I could of sworn a thread like this would be started by an Oilers fan trying to put the Flames down in any way possible.

[FireFly]

I'm fairly certain that any money the Flames make stays within the organization. I can assure you that if there are profits at the end of the year, they don't go into Murray's pockets to help fund a mine. The mine or other investments may help fund the Flames though... so really, maybe you should buy MORE Flames stuff so dirty oil/mine money doesn't soil the image of the Flames.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I know Murray Edwards, despite being the controlling shareholder of the mine in question, is not the only person to blame.

Why is he to blame, at all? He made zero decisions for Imperial Metals. He was only an investor.

The reason I want to write the Flames and the league is because I want to know that they care about about the same things as me. That my support of their enterprise requires their support of the environment. I want them to know that the things their ownership does affect me and my ability to support them. Maybe it will spark an uptick in environmentalism within the league, maybe it will do nothing, but I think that is my goal presently.

If merely investing in a company is enough for you to generate such passion, I will tell you right now that you should just stop watching NHL forever. I don't even have to do any research and I can tell you that every single owner has some investment in some company that isn't great for the environment (whether that'd be Intel and their heavy metals, any sort of manufacturing, energy, forestry, fishing, transport etc.)

I hope that you do some additional research on Canadian environmental standards and compare them directly to other countries' standards. Compared to other countries, our regulations are draconian. Mistakes still happen, but at least we won't have cover-ups, bribes and other corruption, and the company at fault will pay for the entirety of the clean up and remediation.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

thymebalm were you an activist in any way before this incident? You are angry at billionaires and Albertan's for supposedly not caring, but would you would have taken such a strong stance if this happened elsewhere?

Edwards has such a loose affiliation with this incident and it's far to early to start drawing conclusions anyways. I could of sworn a thread like this would be started by an Oilers fan trying to put the Flames down in any way possible.

I never said I hate or blame or am angry at Albertans or billionaires or albertan billionaires for that matter. And I wasn't putting down my Flames either.

Though not a fan of the word activist, I've always been a conscious consumer.

I take strong stances on a lot of things. I just don't post in the off-topic forum.

I think controlling stakeholder and politcal investor makes it his affiliation more than loose, but that's obviously up for interpretation.

[ComixZone]

But seriously - the Oil & Gas industry is the basis for pretty much the entire world's economy and way of life. They do their best, they do care. It's not like they're literally sitting back in their chairs made of gold and the bones of small forest creatures laughing at the people and the planet as spills wreak their havoc.

If you're strongly against the Oil & Gas industry, then you should be doing an awful lot more than boycotting a professional sports team.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

When I first posted, I didn't have an end goal in mind. I was upset and confused.



I guess my goal is to have the business I support (NHL) know that it makes it difficult for me to support them when the actions/investments of their ownership group negatively impact me and the place where I live, where we all live.



It doesn't make sense for me to write a university I've never been too, or a mountain I've never skied. The reason that I feel I can write the NHL is because I'm a consumer of their product, and I believe they care about their consumers.



I know Murray Edwards, despite being the controlling shareholder of the mine in question, is not the only person to blame. You can trust that I certainly didn't vote for the current government in power, one that was heavily financed by Edwards' many corporations. You can be sure that my political engagement will further increase following this disaster. I know there are a whole host of inspectors, engineers, lobbyists, bureaucrats who all contributed knowingly or unknowingly to the breach. Many heads will roll by the time the final report is written.



The reason I want to write the Flames and the league is because I want to know that they care about about the same things as me. That my support of their enterprise requires their support of the environment. I want them to know that the things their ownership does affect me and my ability to support them. Maybe it will spark an uptick in environmentalism within the league, maybe it will do nothing, but I think that is my goal presently.



I hope it's ok to say I'm still not 100% percent sure how all the pieces fit or how to make the most positive impact in the wake of a negative event. I just need to do something.

Thanks thyme, nicely put
I understand a little bit more of where you're coming from. I agree that NHL owners being more conscious of their business dealings and investments is always a good thing, and while I hope you do what makes you most comfortable, I also hope you don't make the mistake of being too hard on the Flames or Murray Edwards.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Red_Baron

Not to make light of this but the media has really cooked up a lot of misinformation and this misinformation has the potential to do a lot of damage to the hard work many of us professional scientists in BC do every day.
The media puts out words like "mercury" or "arsenic" to incite fear and how many times have we seen the words "toxic sludge" in this thread? I've worked on many tailings dams and have done geochem samples for a few very similar alkalic porphyry mines and the numbers are very comparable to the background numbers in the native soil.

This is a good post. I think everyone agrees this is a bad situation, but it's clear some media outlets are likely over exaggerating things (words like "catastrophe" start to be used) because it makes for a more compelling read to those who are already outraged. Stepping back and looking at this after emotions settle down a bit can make for a more accurate opinion on the subject.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I guess my goal is to have the business I support (NHL) know that it makes it difficult for me to support them when the actions/investments of their ownership group negatively impact me and the place where I live, where we all live.

I am pretty sure the Calgary Flames Limited Partnership did not cause the mine incident.

The reason I want to write the Flames and the league is because I want to know that they care about about the same things as me. That my support of their enterprise requires their support of the environment. I want them to know that the things their ownership does affect me and my ability to support them. Maybe it will spark an uptick in environmentalism within the league, maybe it will do nothing, but I think that is my goal presently.

I hate to tell you this, but the NHL doesn't care about the mining industry in the slightest. If they respond to you at all, the odds are high that all you will get lip service in the form of a form letter. Ultimately, something that happens with one of Edwards' investments has absolutely zero to do with another of Edwards' investments.

I hope it's ok to say I'm still not 100% percent sure how all the pieces fit or how to make the most positive impact in the wake of a negative event. I just need to do something.

In this case, I think the advice of others is wise. Sending a letter to the NHL is going to accomplish zero. Sending a letter to your MP regarding the incident and your hope for improved regulations and oversight to mitigate the chances of a future incident would be far more likely to bear fruit. Likewise, some of the suggestions of joining action groups (legitimate ones rather than the likes of Greenpeace) that aim to accomplish the same would be of benefit.

[SeeGeeWhy]

OP, I completely understand and share in your dismay.

Murray Edwards is a very enterprising and principled man. His character is probably among the best of any individual for his kind of position in life that you might know. Things like this happen when you're as ambitious and active as he is. The risk and consequence of this kind of thing pretty much defines why these people are gutsy, and why their rewards can be so great... their response to crises like this are defining and will either crush or elevate them.

Please know this, his presence as a majority shareholder at Imperial increases the probability that their response and reclamation efforts will go beyond what is expected of corporations in these kinds of situations, not the opposite. Incidents like this are a risk that we accept in society in exchange for their benefit. The jobs of the people who live near the mines, their ability to support and raise families in an amazingly beautiful part of our country, the valuable copper and gold that come from the mine, and so on. It's the response to such disasters that define the community, including the owner of the mine. As I understand it, the operator is already committing to clean it up in full. I am sure there will also be lessons on how to avoid this in the future, and how other mines across the industry can be made more secure.

A suggestion would be to not let your passion go to waste. Write a letter to Murray, as a long time flames fan, imploring him to use his position in the company to influence the response to the disaster for the best.

If you truly want to boycott the flames, you should also add Westjet to the list.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

But seriously - the Oil & Gas industry is the basis for pretty much the entire world's economy and way of life. They do their best, they do care. It's not like they're literally sitting back in their chairs made of gold and the bones of small forest creatures laughing at the people and the planet as spills wreak their havoc.

If you're strongly against the Oil & Gas industry, then you should be doing an awful lot more than boycotting a professional sports team.

Do you really think that they care? Do you really believe that statement?

Quite an interesting case article, and one really has to wonder how Iran would be in the world today.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_604511.html

Think it is just one company? Think again. Heck, even PepsiCo (a cola company? really?) approached Kissinger about Chile, as Chile wanted fair-market value for their aluminum wealth. When PepsiCo refused to actually give Chile what the resources were actually worth, Chile announced they have no choice but to nationalize their mineral wealth. USA (on behalf of PepsiCo partially) went in and orchestrated a coup, removing the responsible and democratically-elected Allende (who was loved by the people) and was replaced by Pinochet. Just do a little bit of searching on what happened in Chile afterwards. Ask any Chilean friends how it was to live in that country under Pinochet. By the way, Pinochet was eventually brought to justice in Spain, and one of the charges (amongst many) was genocide - a genocide that should never have happened.

Here is a good quote by Allende (the democratically elected president of Chile at the time):

http://www.krysstal.com/display_acts...cle=1973_chile

His warning about multinational companies at the United Nations General Assembly in 1972 has been proved correct. He warned of "a coming conflict between multinationals and democratic governments. They operate without assuming their responsibilities. They share no instinct for the common interest. The political system of the world is weakening as a result."

It isn't being 'against the oil industry' (or industry as whole, including the Oil industry). It is about being against the power and influence they wield for their own benefit, often at the cost of environment, the rights and freedoms of other people in this world, and even people's lives. Does the world need Oil? Of course. What they don't need is Oil companies acting like international governments and getting away with environmental disasters and murder, which they often seem unable to care less about.

I find this stuff very fascinating and very upsetting. Years ago, I thought: "Why do those idiots go and riot and vandalize stuff at all the G8 and G20 meetings? Get a job losers!" Then I asked: "Why do they really do that??" Surprising what you start finding out, what one thing leads to another to another. You quickly discover that these big multinational firms spend considerable wealth in influencing decision making in the world, so that they can make even more money by stealing resources and disregarding environmental concerns.

It isn't about being against the Oil (or other) industry. It is about how they go about their business, and how it negatively affects so many in this world unnecessarily. I can still have a car to go to work in that is product of the hydrocarbon industry, but did so many people have to lose their rights, freedoms and life? Did so much of the world need to be irreparably poisoned?

This is getting a bit sidetracked with regards to the Flames. Having an owner that has invested in this company (and I would bet there are probably people on this forum who are invested, and maybe don't know it) doesn't make it his fault necessarily (doubtful, unless he was a board member and part of the decision-making group, and even then it would be difficult to pinpoint if he was really responsible, or just believed and trusted what the 'experts' told him). However, I still don't see a relevant connection to the Flames. You can still support the Flames without feeling 'guilty' or contradictory.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

BACKCHECK!!!: "Write a letter to your MLA, MP, Environment Minister, party leaders, etc. These are the people who decide what mining companies are and are not allowed to do, and they will set whatever policy will get them votes. Postage is free to sitting members, and you can often talk to MPs and MLAs on the phone. These mechanisms are in place explicitly to give people like you direct influence on policy makers for exactly this kind of situation."

OP: "I think I'll write a letter to the NHL. They'll do something about this."

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I know Murray Edwards, despite being the controlling shareholder of the mine in question, is not the only person to blame. You can trust that I certainly didn't vote for the current government in power, one that was heavily financed by Edwards' many corporations.

Your concern over this incident is certainly warranted, but I still can't wrap around the direction you're taking with it.

I don't understand what writing to the NHL is meant to accomplish, nor the Flames involvement in this. Isn't that like me being invested in say Apple and a casino, and trying to put blame on the Apple for something that casino did? Am I going to write to Apple, telling them I'm not happy with my casino?

I'm sure Edwards has his hands in a number of pots, but that doesn't make any of it related. Really, if you were going to write a letter, wouldn't it make a little more sense to write to Edwards?

[Poe969]

I'm really surprised at the lack of jokes in this thread. I know it's a serious topic but I honestly don't see how it has a lot to do with the NHL. I'm sure there has to be owners who own other companies that are involved in something bad that has happened too.

Maybe this was Murray's way at getting back at BC for putting their crap all over the ice in Calgary whenever the nucks are in town....

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

When I first posted, I didn't have an end goal in mind. I was upset and confused.

I guess my goal is to have the business I support (NHL) know that it makes it difficult for me to support them when the actions/investments of their ownership group negatively impact me and the place where I live, where we all live.

It doesn't make sense for me to write a university I've never been too, or a mountain I've never skied. The reason that I feel I can write the NHL is because I'm a consumer of their product, and I believe they care about their consumers.

I know Murray Edwards, despite being the controlling shareholder of the mine in question, is not the only person to blame. You can trust that I certainly didn't vote for the current government in power, one that was heavily financed by Edwards' many corporations. You can be sure that my political engagement will further increase following this disaster. I know there are a whole host of inspectors, engineers, lobbyists, bureaucrats who all contributed knowingly or unknowingly to the breach. Many heads will roll by the time the final report is written.

The reason I want to write the Flames and the league is because I want to know that they care about about the same things as me. That my support of their enterprise requires their support of the environment. I want them to know that the things their ownership does affect me and my ability to support them. Maybe it will spark an uptick in environmentalism within the league, maybe it will do nothing, but I think that is my goal presently.

I hope it's ok to say I'm still not 100% percent sure how all the pieces fit or how to make the most positive impact in the wake of a negative event. I just need to do something.

Murray Edwards made major contributions to the BC NDP as well. But I suspect that he did not contribute to the Green Party.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

BACKCHECK!!!: "Write a letter to your MLA, MP, Environment Minister, party leaders, etc. These are the people who decide what mining companies are and are not allowed to do, and they will set whatever policy will get them votes. Postage is free to sitting members, and you can often talk to MPs and MLAs on the phone. These mechanisms are in place explicitly to give people like you direct influence on policy makers for exactly this kind of situation."

OP: "I think I'll write a letter to the NHL. They'll do something about this."

I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that corporations have plenty of influence, perhaps even more in the short term than governments. The NHL is a big enterprise with an image to maintain, they might care.

I didn't say I wasn't going to write my MLA. I know how the provincial and federal government system works. My MLA (Herbert) and my MP (Fry) are opposition members who are already grilling the government for a full independent investigation and doing whatever they can to get results. Just because I don't specifically say something doesn't make me ignorant to it.

In fact, in a moment like this, my MLA and my MP know what to do. I voted for them, I elected them to do just that.

I think spreading my concern to where my money is spent is a logical next step. You see a lot of companies change their affiliations when public pressure put on them. Corporations have to be responsible four quarters every year. Politicians only feel the pressure once every leap year.

I don't understand some peoples need to water me down and oversimplify everything I say, and act like just because we have differing opinions I must be some kind of idiot, or even worse, an oilers fan.