Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by nik-

Ahh the classic "there's other bad stuff going on" defense. Pretty sure, at least the last time I checked, Syria and an Islamist movement weren't modern democracies. 1st first world countries answer to a higher standard. Deal with it.

America isn't a modern democracy either? They've done the same thing as well in other countries they've invaded. There were over a 109 000 recorded civilian deaths in Iraq and you never have the level vitriol over that... not to anywhere near what the level is in this thread. So tell me why there is so much of a problem when this country does it over the other?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

America isn't a modern democracy either? They've done the same thing as well in other countries they've invaded. There were over a 109 000 recorded civilian deaths there and you never have the level vitriol over that... not to anywhere near what the level is in this thread.

haha what? Perhaps if you never listen you never hear any vitriol against the US. What world do you live in?

Anyway, deflect deflect deflect.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by nik-

haha what? Perhaps if you never listen you never hear any vitriol against the US. What world do you live in?

Anyway, deflect deflect deflect.

Show me the thousand seven hundred post thread complaining about how the US was totally unjustified invading Iraq and how the Americans are killing innocent Iraqis... Vitriol is directed entirely at how offensively and defensively posters are acting against each other in this thread or the level of insults being thrown against one poster or another here.

This is neither a justification of one sides actions over another and if weren't so quick to just read it like that you would have noticed what I was trying to say.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Show me the thousand seven hundred post thread complaining about how the US was totally unjustified invading Iraq and how the Americans are killing innocent Iraqis... Vitriol is directed entirely at how offensively and defensively posters are acting against each other in this thread or the level of insults being thrown against one poster or another here.

This is neither a justification of one sides actions over another and if weren't so quick to just read it like that you would have noticed what I was trying to say.

This is hilarious. US criticism on this forum has spanned multiple multiple threads over like 10 years. A lot of ridiculous actions of other countries get criticized. This is just the current one at a time when the forum is at likely it's most popular.

Stop with the persecution complex BS. Your "worse things are happening other places" is straight out of the playbook for defenders of lost causes.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Sure, sounds reasonable.

And fortunately for Hamas, when events on the ground gave them cause to escalate, they had an administration in Israel chomping at the bit to let the one side of the Palestinian cause openly against peace determine the course of events instead of dealing with the side of the Palestinian cause that wants peace.

The Israeli administration wants conflict. Hamas wants conflict. They're both happier than pigs in mud right now.

The people suffering are the civilians in Gaza and those on both sides that want to find a way to end the conflict.

There. Now, you are your side lay the blame on Hamas and the Israeli gov't equally, and we can all move on.

I completely disagree with the bolded part of your statement. The only side that wants conflict is Hamas and they are the only ones who are happier than pigs.
All Israel wants to do is live in peace with its neighbors. Unfortunately millions of Arabs won't let them and they won't be happy until the State of Israel no longer exists.... as they have said many, many times.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I completely disagree with the bolded part of your statement. The only side that wants conflict is Hamas and they are the only ones who are happier than pigs.
All Israel wants to do is live in peace with its neighbors. Unfortunately millions of Arabs won't let them and they won't be happy until the State of Israel no longer exists.... as they have said many, many times.

As long as that peace doesn't involve a two state solution, and a continuance of settlements in West Bank territory. They want peace for sure, they just don't want to compromise for it.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Regardless of whether it was worth it, right or wrong, one thing I've found in this whole discussion thread is there are segments of the world obsessed with blaming Israel for everything, either due to mild moral idiocy or thinly veiled bigotry. Replace Palestinian and Israeli in these news articles with Canadian vs. Russians and I'm sure a lot of people will calm down a lot.

Assad kills >180k of his own citizens, no one cares anymore. ISIS has killed thousands if not more in the past week (they have reached Lebanon) with over three hundred executed in the back of the head into a shallow ditch SS style, as well several hundred beheaded w/ their heads mounted on spikes for god knows what reason, we don't care. Every time you put the word Israel in the conversation it seems all proportionality is lost.

This is a thread about Israel and Palestine, if you think things like ISIS need to be talked about, start a thread. Otherwise I have no idea what exactly you'd think would be discussed in this thread. It's not like it was started by a staunch supporter of Palestine to demonise Israel.

Regardless, your first paragraph works the same if you replace "Israel" with "Muslims":

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Regardless of whether it was worth it, right or wrong, one thing I've found in this whole discussion thread is there are segments of the world obsessed with blaming Muslims for everything, either due to mild moral idiocy or thinly veiled bigotry. Replace Palestinian and Israeli in these news articles with Canadian vs. Russians and I'm sure a lot of people will calm down a lot.

It doesn't matter what side you're on, idiocy and bigotry are rampant against both. No sense in pretending it only ever exists against Israel.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

America isn't a modern democracy either? They've done the same thing as well in other countries they've invaded. There were over a 109 000 recorded civilian deaths in Iraq and you never have the level vitriol over that... not to anywhere near what the level is in this thread. So tell me why there is so much of a problem when this country does it over the other?

Let's not forget the fact it is Hamas who is attacking Israel, Hamas the group that claims to want to kill every Jew and includes in their charter standard anti semitic nonsense. Regardless of all that, it must be Israel who is the one who does not want peace. Everyone should just ignore everything Hamas is begging us to know, and instead accuse Israel of everything possible.

Let us add as well that this thread is a pretty good example of every other thread like this: Defenders of Israel state they just want peace and Palestinians should simply lay down their weapons and see where that tactic gets them. The Israel is bad side states no way, they should not lay down their weapons, Hamas is not that bad, they are simply defending them, Israel does bad stuff on purpose to perpetuate the violence.

I think it is rather incriminating there was no outcry from some people while rockets were being fired from Gaza daily all year indicates some people just cannot get their minds wrapped around non stop terrorism.

Palestinians must decide - is Hamas doing this on their own or with their support? What did all of this death and destruction get them? What do they do if they truly want to try the peaceful route and Hamas is pointing guns at them?

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I completely disagree with the bolded part of your statement. The only side that wants conflict is Hamas and they are the only ones who are happier than pigs.
All Israel wants to do is live in peace with its neighbors. Unfortunately millions of Arabs won't let them and they won't be happy until the State of Israel no longer exists.... as they have said many, many times.

Go back to the post I made earlier, click the link, watch the interview with the bi-partisanly accredited middle east expert citing his conversation with the former head of Shin Bet, who sat for hundreds of hours next to Benjamin Netanyahu.

If you choose to disbelieve that, there's no point discussing this with you, as you're beyond the point of evidence based reason.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

I think you need to provide your support for that.

As far as I understand from digging around, Israeli population is almost 8 million but gets $3 billion in aid, so about $375 per capita (which is light years ahead of Afghanistan, which apparently comes in second for countries at about ~$78 per capita.

When you indicate Palestinians get about $500 mill in aid, with their population of 4 million, that yields ~$125 per capita. Now I am not sure if this $500 million you speak of is in addition to the Israeli aid or not, but bottom line is that those numbers do not support your position.

Israel gets by far, the most per capita aid on the planet from the US.

Edit, I found a good link. Foreign aid requests for fiscal year 2015.

Israel, $3.1 billion
Gaza and West Bank, $441 million.

That is aid just from the US though. Israel only gets aid from the US, but the Palestinians get aid from many sources.

Someone was making the argument that the only reason the Israelis are so well off is the aid. I was making the counter argument that Palestinians get more aid, and it hasn't helped them.

[blankall]

Italian journalist says he is certain that it was an errant Hamas rocket that hit the school killing 10 kids. The reason he didn't speak out earlier....He was afraid of Hamas silencing him:

http://pamelageller.com/2014/07/ital...led-kids.html/

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I completely disagree with the bolded part of your statement. The only side that wants conflict is Hamas and they are the only ones who are happier than pigs.
All Israel wants to do is live in peace with its neighbors. Unfortunately millions of Arabs won't let them and they won't be happy until the State of Israel no longer exists.... as they have said many, many times.

The American evangelical Christian crowd is a major actor in this drama as well...

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by blankall

That is aid just from the US though. Israel only gets aid from the US, but the Palestinians get aid from many sources.

Someone was making the argument that the only reason the Israelis are so well off is the aid. I was making the counter argument that Palestinians get more aid, and it hasn't helped them.

The figure you quoted was $500 million. My link indicated a bit less.

Even at the $500 million, your numbers don't add up to your claim, do they?

If you cannot support the claim, a retraction is warranted, IMHO.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

The figure you quoted was $500 million. My link indicated a bit less.

Even at the $500 million, your numbers don't add up to your claim, do they?

If you cannot support the claim, a retraction is warranted, IMHO.

They get aid from other places....How many times do I have to say that.

The Palestinians also get about 250 million in aid from the EU.

The UN not only supplies massive amounts of monetary aid but they build things and they have workers in the Palestinian Authority working for free.

They get aid from the Arab world, muslim charities, etc..

Here is a report on Humanitarian Aid that each country receives:
http://www.globalhumanitarianassista...eport-2011.pdf

Palestine gets the most per capita and its not close. Please note that Israel is not on this list as they get military aid, not humanitarian. But it doesn't include the other sources of Palestinian aid either.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

Italian journalist says he is certain that it was an errant Hamas rocket that hit the school killing 10 kids. The reason he didn't speak out earlier....He was afraid of Hamas silencing him:

http://pamelageller.com/2014/07/ital...led-kids.html/

You didn't seriously link to a post on the website of one of the better known Islamophobic bloggers in America, did you?

It's the equivalent of someone here linking to a neo-nazi for information on Israel. She's a dangerous bigot.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You didn't seriously link to a post on the website of one of the better known Islamophobic bloggers in America, did you?

It's the equivalent of someone here linking to a neo-nazi for information on Israel. She's a dangerous bigot.

You know you've crossed the line when even Jewish people protest your Islamaphobic ads.

http://jcuanews.wordpress.com/2012/1...-on-cta-buses/

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You didn't seriously link to a post on the website of one of the better known Islamophobic bloggers in America, did you?

It's the equivalent of someone here linking to a neo-nazi for information on Israel. She's a dangerous bigot.

Regardless of who that blogger was (I had no idea who she was) she was reposting the actual tweets from the Italian journalist. Here is the actual tweet:

“Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris.”

His twitter account:

https://twitter.com/gabrielebarbati/...31918732926976

The fact a bigot commented about it doesn't make it any less true. The reporter not only witnessed the attack but witnessed Hamas covering their actions up.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You didn't seriously link to a post on the website of one of the better known Islamophobic bloggers in America, did you?

It's the equivalent of someone here linking to a neo-nazi for information on Israel. She's a dangerous bigot.

I read a bit about her, what is it that makes her the equivalent of a neo-nazi? She has certainly been controversial.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Italian journalist says he is certain that it was an errant Hamas rocket that hit the school killing 10 kids. The reason he didn't speak out earlier....He was afraid of Hamas silencing him:

http://pamelageller.com/2014/07/ital...led-kids.html/

This confirms many of my fears.

The epistemic closure is strong.

[blankall]

Also LOL at people thinking Hamas accomplished anything with this. Palestinian society remains fractured. It was also alarming how few people came to their aid. It took the EU 3 weeks before some began threatening to sell fewer weapons.

The only united population in all of this is Israel. This was a rare show of unity where the entire population seemed ready to keep up the fight. If you think this is going to convince Israel to give up more settlements..that's not going to happen either.

So I really don't see what Hamas accomplished here, other than deaths and suffering among their own population. The previous strategy of gaining world support by creating photo ups just didn't hold up this time. Many countries were silent. You had, for the first time, reporters leaving the Gaza Strip and complaining of how heavy handed Hamas was.