Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[blankall]

Originally Posted by spiteface

they kicked out MANY non-jews, destroyed many homes, repopulated these cities, erased palestinian history which has the longest stretch of history in that area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stinian_exodus

It was a two sided process though.

All Jews from the West Bank were removed. Jews from all over the Arab world were thrown from their homes. And if the Jews had lost the 1949 war, what would have been visited upon them would have been far worse.

This was also in the historical context of Jews being massacred and removed from the area.

Palestinians had the longest history in the region only because they consistently destroyed Jewish settlements through history.

In 1660 the Jewish cities of Tiberius and Safed (which had a population of over 40k people) were destroyed by muslim raiders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_de...on_of_Tiberias

In 1834 the Jewish citizens of Hebron, Safed, and Jerusalem were once again targeted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_Genocide

Combine massacre with unfair laws that persecute non-muslims and your going to end up with a muslim majority in an area. I don't see why we need to look at only the actions of Israel in 1949 when settling the questions of who is entitled to what.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Whitewashing what is happening in Gaza? You're going way off on a tangent.

I wrote something very simple. Didn't name names, didn't advocate sides.

You're making it about yourself. I did not.

Actually, I took the accusation of projecting as making it about me.

But lets clarify: what did you mean when you said I was projecting? I've interpreted it as you saying I actually think what I've tried to say you were implying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As I said, I am happily wrong if my assumption was wrong.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The Secretary-General strongly condemns the killing today of at least 10 Palestinian civilians in shelling outside of an UNRWA school in Rafah providing shelter to thousands of civilians. The attack is yet another gross violation of international humanitarian law, which clearly requires protection by both parties of Palestinian civilians, UN staff and UN premises, among other civilian facilities.

United Nations shelters must be safe zones not combat zones. The Israel Defence Forces have been repeatedly informed of the location of these sites. This attack, along with other breaches of international law, must be swiftly investigated and those responsible held accountable. It is a moral outrage and a criminal act.

The Secretary-General is profoundly dismayed over the appalling escalation of violence and loss of hundreds of Palestinian civilian lives since the breach of the humanitarian ceasefire on 1 August. The resurgence in fighting has only exacerbated the man-made humanitarian and health crisis wreaking havoc in Gaza. Restoring calm can be achieved through resumption of the ceasefire and negotiations by the parties in Cairo to address the underlying issues.

The Secretary-General repeats his demand to the parties to immediately end the fighting and return to the path of peace. This madness must stop.

http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=7904

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Actually, I took the accusation of projecting as making it about me.

But lets clarify: what did you mean when you said I was projecting? I've interpreted it as you saying I actually think what I've tried to say you were implying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As I said, I am happily wrong if my assumption was wrong.

Your post about "both sides" was either a clarification or an addendum to my post. However, my post did not advocate for one side or the other and was neutral as written.

So why the clarification or addendum to my post?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Your post about "both sides" was either a clarification or an addendum to my post. However, my post did not advocate for one side or the other and was neutral as written.

So why the clarification or addendum to my post?

Because, as I said. I assumed it was a shot at the guy calling Arya mad. I felt it was implying that people who were pro-Israel were happy to see Palestinians die. I am more than happy to apologize for this assumption. But I didn't need clarification on that. I am asking about the projection comment when I ask for clarification.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Because, as I said. I assumed it was a shot at the guy calling Arya mad. I felt it was implying that people who were pro-Israel were happy to see Palestinians die. I am more than happy to apologize for this assumption. But I didn't need clarification on that. I am asking about the projection comment when I ask for clarification.

The bolded.

I knew it when I read it, and was admittedly sad that this is the baseline on this board. I think there could be much better discussion if we all stepped back and did our best to respond to what is typed rather than defend what we assume.

I tried to start a discussion along those lines by pointing out the unequivocal grievances that the Israelis have and the assurances they deserve. Sadly that newly hatched turtle never made it to the water...

[J epworth]

I want to say a few different things here. First most of you know by now I am Pro-Israeli, but I want to make clear that I do not for a second believe what is happening right now is just. War is madness and Israel has been fighting a defensive war since 1948. Saying that, it does not for one second absolve them from how they've been imposing their will. Ernest Hemingway said it best after WWII that no war, no matter how justified, is without crime.

"We have waged war in the most ferocious and ruthless way that has ever been waged. We waged it against fierce and ruthless enemies that it was necessary to destroy. Now we have destroyed one of our enemies and forced the capitulation of the other. For the moment, we are the strongest power in the world. It is very important that we do not become the most hated….We need to study and understand certain basic problems….and remember that no weapon has ever settled a moral problem. It can impose a solution, but it cannot guarantee it to be a just one. An aggressive war is the great crime against everything good in the world. A defensive war, which must necessarily turn aggressive at the earliest moment is the great counter crime….We never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified is not a crime. Ask the infantry and the dead."

It's obvious that shelling sites with little military objective is going to help impose a moral solution. It will take a huge step forward in trust for any lasting peace to occur, but I still believe it can be done.


Saying that now, reading some peoples comments about this conflict really tests my faith that peace could occur. I don't care if I get into trouble for saying this, but Itse, that post you wrote made me sick to my stomach. I've never read a post littered with so much hate in this thread until your post. Then trying to justify it by saying people in authority have even more extreme views than you do makes me scared for what people actually believe. There is so much misinformation that you were trying to convey as fact, and the fact that so many people believe it makes me worried and scared that there is so much hate even in Canada.

[Chill Cosby]

As emotionally connected to this as some might feel, we need to stop accusing other people of posters of hate. All it does is antagonise others, and if you feel a post steps over the line, report it.

Can we PLEASE stop? It's not as though both sides don't have a couple people that have been repeatedly guilty of expressing themselves with questionable motives.

This is a issue where people may have a lot of personal stake or feelings in the matter. Respond to posts disputing the information, not the poster. If you can't, then don't respond at all.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

I want to say a few different things here. First most of you know by now I am Pro-Israeli, but I want to make clear that I do not for a second believe what is happening right now is just. War is madness and Israel has been fighting a defensive war since 1948. Saying that, it does not for one second absolve them from how they've been imposing their will. Ernest Hemingway said it best after WWII that no war, no matter how justified, is without crime.

Just out of curiosity, what has Israel's participation and/or advancement of an unjust war* done for your Pro-Israeli stance?

For example, Hamas's tactics since their election has left me very discouraged with the Palestinian people, whom I believe were being reactive to a highly pressurized situation but also acting naively and not in their best long term interests. Reports at the time of the election showed that the majority of people were voting with corruption / law and order as their driving issue, and Hamas actually campaigned on a two-state solution. So in effect, the people weren't voting for terrorism, but were naive to the group that could best achieve their desire. That's on them, and it makes me question how amenable they'll be to clearer thinking going forward.



* I used "unjust" simply because you said you don't believe what is happening is just. Not trying to throw a loaded word into the fray, but trying to convey the fact that you don't agree with all/some of the actions.

[Arya Stark]

Another U.N school hit. U.N worker dead and 10 other people, mostly children.

U.N warned Israel 33 times including once one hour before attack.

How can people defend this crap? Unbelievable. The U.N is paying the price for trying to stand up against Israel.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/wo...231/story.html

[Arya Stark]

Jeez watch that video and tell me why it is still shocking people are joining Hamas and want the destruction of Israel. Pretty clear to me why Hamas would become popular among regular Palestinians. Cowardly act by Israel once again.

[Flash Walken]

She is young. She is pretty. She is a university graduate and a computer engineer. She is also an Israeli Parliamentarian - and the reason why I am on the brink of burning my Israeli passport. Because behind that wide-eyed innocent face lurks the Angel of Death.

Ayelet Shaked represents the far-right Jewish Home party in the Knesset. This means she is well to the right of Benyamin Netanyahu, just in case you thought such a thing was not possible.

On Monday she quoted this on her Facebook page: “Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

A week earlier, just before 17-year-old Mohammed Abu Khudair was snatched and burned alive, Shaked wrote: “This is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. The reality is that this is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started it.”

So even before the boy died horribly she declared him to be the enemy, and afterwards, without any apparent hint of guilt or remorse, she was calling for the deaths of innocent women and their unborn babies.

For Gaza, the plans for the norm were explained forthrightly by Dov Weissglass, a confidant of Ariel Sharon, the person who negotiated the withdrawal of Israeli settlers from Gaza in 2005. Hailed as a grand gesture in Israel and among acolytes and the deluded elsewhere, the withdrawal was in reality a carefully staged “national trauma,” properly ridiculed by informed Israeli commentators, among them Israel’s leading sociologist, the late Baruch Kimmerling.

What actually happened is that Israeli hawks, led by Sharon, realized that it made good sense to transfer the illegal settlers from their subsidized communities in devastated Gaza, where they were sustained at exorbitant cost, to subsidized settlements in the other occupied territories, which Israel intends to keep. But instead of simply transferring them, as would have been simple enough, it was clearly more useful to present the world with images of little children pleading with soldiers not to destroy their homes, amidst cries of “Never Again,” with the implication obvious. What made the farce even more transparent was that it was a replica of the staged trauma when Israel had to evacuate the Egyptian Sinai in 1982. But it played very well for the intended audience at home and abroad.

Weissglass provided his own description of the transfer of settlers from Gaza to other occupied territories: “What I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that [the major settlement blocs in the West Bank] would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns” – but a special kind of Finns, who would quietly accept rule by a foreign power. “The significance is the freezing of the political process,” Weissglass continued. “And when you freeze that process you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion about the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package that is called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed from our agenda indefinitely. And all this with [President Bush's] authority and permission and the ratification of both houses of Congress.”

Weisglass explained further that Gazans would remain “on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger” – which would not help Israel’s fading reputation. With their vaunted technical efficiency, Israeli experts determined precisely how many calories a day Gazans needed for bare survival, while also depriving them of medicines and other means of decent life. Israeli military forces confined them by land, sea and air to what British Prime Minister David Cameron accurately described as a prison camp. The Israeli withdrawal left Israel in total control of Gaza, hence the occupying power under international law. And to close the prison walls even more tightly, Israel excluded Palestinians from a large region along the border, including a third or more of Gaza’s scarce arable land. The justification is security for Israelis, which could be just as well achieved by establishing the security zone on the Israeli side of the border, or more fully, by ending the savage siege and other punishments.

The official story is that after Israel graciously handed Gaza over to the Palestinians, in the hope that they would construct a flourishing state, they revealed their true nature by subjecting Israel to unremitting rocket attack and forcing the captive population to become martyrs to so that Israel would be pictured in a bad light. Reality is rather different.

A few weeks after Israeli troops withdrew, leaving the occupation intact, Palestinians committed a major crime. In January 2006, they voted the wrong way in a carefully monitored free election, handing control of the Parliament to Hamas. The media constantly intone that Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. In reality, its leaders have repeatedly made it clear and explicit that Hamas would accept a two-state settlement in accord with the international consensus that has been blocked by the US and Israel for 40 years. In contrast, Israel is dedicated to the destruction of Palestine, apart from some occasional meaningless words, and is implementing that commitment.

True, Israel accepted the Road Map for reaching a two-state settlement initiated by President Bush and adopted by the Quartet that is to supervise it: the US, the European Union, the United Nations, and Russia. But as he accepted the Road Map, Prime Minister Sharon at once added fourteen reservations that effectively nullify it. The facts were known to activists, but revealed to the general public for the first time in Jimmy Carter’s book “Palestine: Peace not Apartheid.” They remain under wraps in media reporting and commentary.

The (unrevised) 1999 platform of Israel’s governing party, Binyamin Netanyahu’s Likud, “flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.” And for those who like to obsess about meaningless charters, the core component of Likud, Menahem Begin’s Herut, has yet to abandon its founding doctrine that the territory on both sides of the Jordan is part of the Land of Israel.

The crime of the Palestinians in January 2006 was punished at once. The US and Israel, with Europe shamefully trailing behind, imposed harsh sanctions on the errant population and Israel stepped up its violence. By June, when the attacks sharply escalated, Israel had already fired more than 7700 [155 mm] shells at northern Gaza.

The US and Israel quickly initiated plans for a military coup to overthrow the elected government. When Hamas had the effrontery to foil the plans, the Israeli assaults and the siege became far more severe, justified by the claim that Hamas had taken over the Gaza Strip by force – which is not entirely false, though something rather crucial is omitted.

There should be no need to review again the horrendous record since. The relentless siege and savage attacks are punctuated by episodes of “mowing the lawn,” to borrow Israel’s cheery expression for its periodic exercises of shooting fish in a pond in what it calls a “war of defense.” Once the lawn is mowed and the desperate population seeks to reconstruct somehow from the devastation and the murders, there is a cease-fire agreement. These have been regularly observed by Hamas, as Israel concedes, until Israel violates them with renewed violence.

The most recent cease-fire was established after Israel’s October 2012 assault. Though Israel maintained its devastating siege, Hamas observed the cease-fire, as Israeli officials concede. Matters changed in June, when Fatah and Hamas forged a unity agreement, which established a new government of technocrats that had no Hamas participation and accepted all of the demands of the Quartet. Israel was naturally furious, even more so when even the US joined in signaling approval. The unity agreement not only undercuts Israel’s claim that it cannot negotiate with a divided Palestine, but also threatens the long term goal of dividing Gaza from the West Bank and pursuing its destructive policies in both of the regions.

Something had to be done, and an occasion arose shortly after, when the three Israeli boys were murdered in the West Bank. The Netanyahu government knew at once that they were dead, but pretended otherwise, which provided the opportunity to launch a rampage in the West Bank, targeting Hamas. Netanhayu claimed to have certain knowledge that Hamas was responsible. That too was a lie, as recognized early on. There has been no pretense of presenting evidence. One of Israel’s leading authorities on Hamas, Shlomi Eldar, reported almost at once that the killers very likely came from a dissident clan in Hebron that has long been a thorn in the side of Hamas. Eldar added that “I’m sure they didn’t get any green light from the leadership of Hamas, they just thought it was the right time to act.” The Israeli police have since been searching for two members of the clan, still claiming, without evidence, that they are “Hamas terrorists.”

The 18-day rampage however did succeed in undermining the feared unity government, and sharply increasing Israeli repression. According to Israeli military sources, Israeli soldiers arrested 419 Palestinians, including 335 affiliated with Hamas, and killed six Palestinians, also searching thousands of locations and confiscating $350,000. Israel also conducted dozens of attacks in Gaza, killing 5 Hamas members on July 7.

Hamas finally reacted with its first rockets in 19 months, Israeli officials reported, providing Israel with the pretext for Operation Protective Edge on July 8.

There has been ample reporting of the exploits of the self-declared Most Moral Army in the World, which should receive the Nobel Peace Prize according to Israel’s Ambassador to the US. By the end of July, some 1500 Palestinians had been killed, exceeding the toll of the Cast Lead crimes of 2008-9, 70% of them civilians including hundreds of women and children. And 3 civilians in Israel. Large areas of Gaza had been turned into rubble. During brief bombing pauses, relatives desperately seek shattered bodies or household items in the ruins of homes. The main power plant was attacked – not for the first time; this is an Israeli specialty — sharply curtailing the already very limited electricity and worse yet, reducing still further the minimal availability of fresh water. Another war crime. Meanwhile rescue teams and ambulances are repeatedly attacked. As atrocities mount throughout Gaza, Israel claims that its goal is to destroy tunnels at the border.

Four hospitals had been attacked, each yet another war crime. The first was the Al-Wafa Rehabilitation Hospital in Gaza City, attacked on the day the ground forces invaded the prison. A few lines in the New York Times, within a story about the ground invasion, reported that “most but not all of the 17 patients and 25 doctors and nurses were evacuated before the electricity was cut and heavy bombardments nearly destroyed the building, doctors said. `We evacuated them under fire,’ said Dr. Ali Abu Ryala, a hospital spokesman. `Nurses and doctors had to carry the patients on their backs, some of them falling off the stairway. There is an unprecedented state of panic in the hospital’.”

Three working hospitals were then attacked, patients and staff left to their own devices to survive. One Israeli crime did receive wide condemnation: the attack on a UN school that was harboring 3300 terrified refugees who had fled the ruins of their neighborhoods on the orders of the Israeli army. The outraged UNWRA Commission-General Pierre Kraehenbuehl said “I condemn in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces…. Today the world stands disgraced.” There were at least three Israeli strikes at the refugee shelter, a site well known to the Israeli army. “The precise location of the Jabalia Elementary Girls School and the fact that it was housing thousands of internally displaced people was communicated to the Israeli army seventeen times, to ensure its protection,” Kraehenbuehl said, “the last being at ten to nine last night, just hours before the fatal shelling.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle39311.htm

Again, I must stress that calling this a 'war' is a perversion of the word and utterly contemptuous of the reality of the situation, confirmed even by the Israeli's themselves.

This is an illegal occupation as recognized internationally and domestically within Israel.

It is a military exercise perpetrated by an occupying power of staggering military might against a largely defenseless and subjugated minority.

To term it a war is to fundamentally ignore or misunderstand the realities of the situation as accepted even by the party's involved.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Another U.N school hit. U.N worker dead and 10 other people, mostly children.

U.N warned Israel 33 times including once one hour before attack.

How can people defend this crap? Unbelievable. The U.N is paying the price for trying to stand up against Israel.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/wo...231/story.html

Rarely does the UN stand up FOR Israel.

And are we sure this was caused by Israel? Hamas have fired rockets in the past that have gone off course and mistakenly hit buildings in Gaza... and then they lie and say the Jews did it.

And .... if in fact it was an Israeli air strike... why? What military purpose does it serve to target a school. There is more to this story than what appears on the surface.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle39311.htm

Again, I must stress that calling this a 'war' is a perversion of the word and utterly contemptuous of the reality of the situation, confirmed even by the Israeli's themselves.

This is an illegal occupation as recognized internationally and domestically within Israel.

It is a military exercise perpetrated by an occupying power of staggering military might against a largely defenseless and subjugated minority.

To term it a war is to fundamentally ignore or misunderstand the realities of the situation as accepted even by the party's involved.

As much as people want to believe that the attacks from Gaza don't affect Israelis, they do.

The rockets make large parts of the country uninhabitable. It's not a big country.

Just because both sides don't use the same tactics, does not make it any less a war.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle39311.htm

Again, I must stress that calling this a 'war' is a perversion of the word and utterly contemptuous of the reality of the situation, confirmed even by the Israeli's themselves.

This is an illegal occupation as recognized internationally and domestically within Israel.

It is a military exercise perpetrated by an occupying power of staggering military might against a largely defenseless and subjugated minority.

To term it a war is to fundamentally ignore or misunderstand the realities of the situation as accepted even by the party's involved.

One side might me be more mighty, and one side may be more just, but it's a war by any definition

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

One side might me be more mighty, and one side may be more just, but it's a war by any definition

I agree with your statement that it is a war. Perhaps even a war of survival by both sides.

However the first part of your statement bothers me. Obviously Israel is the "mighty" so that would make Hamas the "just"? Not in my eyes they aren't. They are just another terrorist group trying to get their way by killing people, be it Jews, Christians, or Muslims.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Rarely does the UN stand up FOR Israel.

And are we sure this was caused by Israel? Hamas have fired rockets in the past that have gone off course and mistakenly hit buildings in Gaza... and then they lie and say the Jews did it.

And .... if in fact it was an Israeli air strike... why? What military purpose does it serve to target a school. There is more to this story than what appears on the surface.

That would be truly a coincidence, eh? Thousands of rockets fired at Israel with quite a few landing only managing to kill 3 Israeli civilians, and one rocket is supposed to kill 10 and injure dozens of others? Come on, this is common sense.

Israel has already confirmed it was them.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...122193560.html

[Canuck-Hater]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Rarely does the UN stand up FOR Israel.

And are we sure this was caused by Israel? Hamas have fired rockets in the past that have gone off course and mistakenly hit buildings in Gaza... and then they lie and say the Jews did it.

And .... if in fact it was an Israeli air strike... why? What military purpose does it serve to target a school. There is more to this story than what appears on the surface.

Who else would it be? Hamas certainly doesn't have an airforce...

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Rerun

And .... if in fact it was an Israeli air strike... why? What military purpose does it serve to target a school. There is more to this story than what appears on the surface.

Doesn't serve a military purpose, but that's not what this whole operation is about. The goal is to cause as much death and destruction as is possible to eliminate the peace process. Israel can't flatten Gaza due to int'l pressure, so it has found a nice way to kill civilians and blame Hamas for it. Getting rid of hamas was never the goal, how many Israeli officials have said that is what they want? israel is not stupid, it knows if Hamas is gone and the rockets stop, the party is over for Israel and the world will ask what is keeping it from giving the Palestinians their own state. No, cause as much damage and death as possible so the conversation shifts to cleaning up Gaza and get Hamas to say that there is no way there can be peace with israel after this conflict.

[Arya Stark]

Good to see the U.S finally calling these acts exactly what they are.

"The U.S. State Department also chimed in saying it was "appalled" by the "disgraceful shelling."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-st...moon-1.2726449