Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Itse]

Originally Posted by blankall

Not going to go through this point by point but a few major points.

1) Palestinians are not citizens of Israel, they are citizens of the Palestinian Authority.

Yes, this is very convenient for Israel of course. However, every international treaty and law consider Palestine to be under Israel rule.

The fact that after decades of occupation they still refuse to give Palestinians citizenships only underlines the fact that Palestinians are not equal in Israel, despite most of them living their for their whole lives.

3) The people of the Gaza Strip are the only ones who have committed ethnic cleansing...and religious cleansing. The Levant is an historically diverse place. The Gaza Strip is now 100% Arab and only a few hundred Christians remain.

So, it's a coincidence that in 1948 incident essentially only arabs became refugees in the area, and that after 70 years it's still mostly only arabs that are refugees in the area?

Sure.

Look, this is not really a topic which I'm willing to discuss for very long, because it's so hopeless. (Although I can't really understand how comparing Hamas and ANC is hate speech?)

I don't really care. I have no personal stake in the conflict. If I want criticism to my views, I'll discuss it with my professors or fellow students. Or actual experts on the conflict.

I admit that I've been using some deliberately false language to simplify some points, since this is not an academic forum and really just not a place to discuss questions such as how did the Gaza strip become what it is today, effectively a nazi-style ghetto.

Now, I'm also by no means an expert on the history of Israel, but I'd like to mention that I know quite a few people who are, and they tend to be much stronger in their condemnation of Israel. Apparently reading the view of Israel on the topic side-by-side with human rights reports from the area has a tendency to make people really angry.

In any case, it is what it is, one persons attempt to state his views of a big issue in a relatively small place. Take it for what it's worth, I'm out of here again.

[Itse]

Oh, almost forgot:

I like the way Bob the Angry Flower puts "the human shield" thing...

[Red Slinger]

This is a complicated issue with victims and villains on both sides. There are some in this thread (and the world) that are only able to blame one side or the other and are lacking basic empathy for the other side. So the argument comes across more as a debate about a team sport (maybe not surprisingly considering the medium) than a real discussion of the issues.

I think Israel and Palestine and their enablers suffer from the same thing. They are in an unending cycle of defending their actions, deflecting and justifying but rarely trying to look at all aspects of the situation that are required to actually make any significant progress.

Some of the posts in this thread, even by posters that I generally have a lot of respect for, are ridiculous bordering on hateful propaganda.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yes, this is very convenient for Israel of course. However, every international treaty and law consider Palestine to be under Israel rule.

The fact that after decades of occupation they still refuse to give Palestinians citizenships only underlines the fact that Palestinians are not equal in Israel, despite most of them living their for their whole lives.



So, it's a coincidence that in 1948 incident essentially only arabs became refugees in the area, and that after 70 years it's still mostly only arabs that are refugees in the area?

Sure.

Look, this is not really a topic which I'm willing to discuss for very long, because it's so hopeless. (Although I can't really understand how comparing Hamas and ANC is hate speech?)

I don't really care. I have no personal stake in the conflict. If I want criticism to my views, I'll discuss it with my professors or fellow students. Or actual experts on the conflict.

I admit that I've been using some deliberately false language to simplify some points, since this is not an academic forum and really just not a place to discuss questions such as how did the Gaza strip become what it is today, effectively a nazi-style ghetto.

Now, I'm also by no means an expert on the history of Israel, but I'd like to mention that I know quite a few people who are, and they tend to be much stronger in their condemnation of Israel. Apparently reading the view of Israel on the topic side-by-side with human rights reports from the area has a tendency to make people really angry.

In any case, it is what it is, one persons attempt to state his views of a big issue in a relatively small place. Take it for what it's worth, I'm out of here again.

1 If you are only willing to take criticism from your professors or fellow students, don't post in this forum.


2 You won't get any credibility if you deliberately post things that are false.


3 Agree..or else you would not have stated that the failure of Camp David is all on Israel's shoulders.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Itse

I don't really care. I have no personal stake in the conflict. If I want criticism to my views, I'll discuss it with my professors or fellow students. Or actual experts on the conflict.

That is preferable to posting hateful rhetoric online with claims you are here to speak the truth. That giant post was exactly what the problem is.

Originally Posted by Itse

I admit that I've been using some deliberately false language to simplify some points, since this is not an academic forum and really just not a place to discuss questions such as how did the Gaza strip become what it is today, effectively a nazi-style ghetto.

Simplify points? The only purpose of those words is to spread hate. There is no academic forum that uses that language the way you did. Higher education requires people to step forward and research things, and clear through the sea of hate. And here you are still using the word Nazi while discussing Jews and Israel. This demonstrates just how deep you are polluted with hateful false information.

Originally Posted by Itse

Now, I'm also by no means an expert on the history of Israel, but I'd like to mention that I know quite a few people who are, and they tend to be much stronger in their condemnation of Israel. Apparently reading the view of Israel on the topic side-by-side with human rights reports from the area has a tendency to make people really angry.

No, you are certainly repeating things that people know are untrue. It is unsafe to walk around much of the world today being recognizable as a jew, simply due to the so called experts that you have relied on information from. Even Calgarians have been assaulted.

Originally Posted by Itse

In any case, it is what it is, one persons attempt to state his views of a big issue in a relatively small place. Take it for what it's worth, I'm out of here again.

These were not views, they were hateful lies.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Itse

The fact that after decades of occupation they still refuse to give Palestinians citizenships only underlines the fact that Palestinians are not equal in Israel, despite most of them living their for their whole lives.

Palestinians have citizenship in Israel, this has been repeated over and over again. These Palestinians can vote for who they want, speak out against anything they want and live a free life, gay, straight or whatever. This is probably better than anywhere else in the Arab world.

You are confused with the occupied territories, which would not be occupied if these places dedicated themselves to peaceful relations with Israel.

Originally Posted by Itse

So, it's a coincidence that in 1948 incident essentially only arabs became refugees in the area, and that after 70 years it's still mostly only arabs that are refugees in the area?

No coincidence at all, such a bizarre thing to ask. What you are describing is from the result of a massive war in the region, everyone against Israel. Israel has made multiple offers to resolve the conflict but it is purely the Palestinians who have backed away from reaching agreements.

If what you think happened is Israel became a nation and kicked out every non jew, that is false and part of the BS racist and hateful narrative being spread throughout much of the world. I am sure this is obvious in the academic world you are a part of.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Eye opening article about the prevalence of racism in Israel. It is not necessarily the peace wanting democracy that some here want to paint it as. Many Israeli's (including high ranking politicians) seem to be out for blood. Maybe that's what the latest attacks are reflective of.

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/israe...-kleinfeld-511








So basically, anyone who thinks this is a straight up "good guy" (Israel) vs "bad guy" (Hamas) situation is clearly oversimplifying the matter and can't see that the rise of extremism can happen on either side, and there's no shortage of it in Israel. I highly encourage reading the full article.

I posted this a few pages back, and as usual, its completely ignored by the Nage Waza's of the thread who want to paint Israel as the most peace loving, equality seeking, angels of this conflict.

I will continue to re-post it until it is acknowledged. Any bets on how long it takes Nage Waza to label it as "hate speech" against Israel?

[longsuffering]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...ickly-in-gaza/

A great read that doesn't take sides but points out that Gazans really have no where to go when ordered out of their homes.

[Canuck-Hater]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Interesting report by VICE

http://m.vice.com/read/israeli-racis...-kleinfeld-511

Very troubling article. Makes me wonder if there is any hope left in this world.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by redforever

You sound angry.

Sometimes, when human beings are killed for no reason, other humans get angry. Empathy can lead to frustration, especially if you consider every life sacred regardless of birthplace.

There is an appalling lack of respect for human life being shown by many in this thread. It's frankly rather terrifying.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

There is an appalling lack of respect for human life being shown by many in this thread. It's frankly rather terrifying.

From both sides.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

From both sides.

Did I specify one side or the other?

[Moderator]

Some posts have been removed, another reminder to direct your posts at the topic, not the other poster.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Did I specify one side or the other?

No, but I felt there was a very strong implication that it was only one side.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

No, but I felt there was a very strong implication that it was only one side.

You're projecting your view onto people when it's not what they're expressing.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

If what you think happened is Israel became a nation and kicked out every non jew, that is false and part of the BS racist and hateful narrative being spread throughout much of the world. I am sure this is obvious in the academic world you are a part of.

they kicked out MANY non-jews, destroyed many homes, repopulated these cities, erased palestinian history which has the longest stretch of history in that area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stinian_exodus

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

You're projecting your view onto people when it's not what they're expressing.

I actually take offense to that considering how many times I've tried to make it clear that the deaths of the Palestinians and the way this offensive is happening is abhorrent. If I am wrong about my assumption, then I am happily wrong. But don't think that because I made that assumption I am trying to whitewash what is happening in Gaza.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Very troubling article. Makes me wonder if there is any hope left in this world.

Unfortunately, it just illustrates the cycle of how violence begets violence. It's been stated numerous times in this thread how young people in Gaza or the West Bank become conditioned for extremism because of their environment, but the same holds true for Israelis. Constant threats of terrorist attacks and open expressions for Jewish annihilation will take their toll on the minds and hearts of the people.

It's a universal phenomena in every conflict.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

I actually take offense to that considering how many times I've tried to make it clear that the deaths of the Palestinians and the way this offensive is happening is abhorrent. If I am wrong about my assumption, then I am happily wrong. But don't think that because I made that assumption I am trying to whitewash what is happening in Gaza.

Whitewashing what is happening in Gaza? You're going way off on a tangent.

I wrote something very simple. Didn't name names, didn't advocate sides.

You're making it about yourself. I did not.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yes, this is very convenient for Israel of course. However, every international treaty and law consider Palestine to be under Israel rule.

The fact that after decades of occupation they still refuse to give Palestinians citizenships only underlines the fact that Palestinians are not equal in Israel, despite most of them living their for their whole lives.



So, it's a coincidence that in 1948 incident essentially only arabs became refugees in the area, and that after 70 years it's still mostly only arabs that are refugees in the area?

Sure.

Look, this is not really a topic which I'm willing to discuss for very long, because it's so hopeless. (Although I can't really understand how comparing Hamas and ANC is hate speech?)

I don't really care. I have no personal stake in the conflict. If I want criticism to my views, I'll discuss it with my professors or fellow students. Or actual experts on the conflict.

I admit that I've been using some deliberately false language to simplify some points, since this is not an academic forum and really just not a place to discuss questions such as how did the Gaza strip become what it is today, effectively a nazi-style ghetto.

Now, I'm also by no means an expert on the history of Israel, but I'd like to mention that I know quite a few people who are, and they tend to be much stronger in their condemnation of Israel. Apparently reading the view of Israel on the topic side-by-side with human rights reports from the area has a tendency to make people really angry.

In any case, it is what it is, one persons attempt to state his views of a big issue in a relatively small place. Take it for what it's worth, I'm out of here again.

1) Only Arabs became refugees in the area, because the Israelis offered all Jewish people fleeing Arab lands citizenship. The Arab countries not only denied Palestinians citizenship but revoked the citizenship of anyone who could be considered Palestinian.

2) Once again, Palestinians are not citizens of Israel. They are not under Israeli rule. They have their own government (the Palestinian Authority) who rules them. Palestinians are not equal in Israel. Israelis are not equal in the Palestinian Authority. Arabs with Israeli citizenship are equal in Israel.