Subban arbitration UPDATE: Signs 8 year/72 million deal

[Hackey]

Wow man no need to be so dramatic. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can think what you want. He was the highest scoring player on the team in the playoffs though. Seems more like a leader than a complimentary player to me. He was the second highest scorer on the team in the regular season as well and he's a dman. Again think what you want but those facts are kind of hard to ignore. People said all the same things when he was up for his last contract and the Habs now wish they would have taken that deal. They gave him 2 years to prove himself and he won a Norris and lead his team to the eastern finals. All that while thriving in probably the toughest market in hockey. You don't need to think he's the best player in the world but at least give credit where credit is due.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I would say that spectacular goaltending got them as far in the playoffs as they went. PK had some good moments but Price/Tokarski were lights out for most of the games.

Price was 100% a huge part of their success. As was PK. Those are the two players that really made the difference on that team. I think anyone who watched them these playoffs could clearly see that. Their also very close friends so that's an even bigger reason to lock up PK.

[mccalgary71]

I don't really get all the fuss over this guy. While he is a very good offensive defenseman. He is horrrribbblle defensively. To try and compare him with Shea Webber is kind of a joke. He is nowhere near the defenseman Weber or the other elite defense are.



Posted from Calgarypuck.com App for Android

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by nik-

Comparing playing time on Team Canada against Team USA is a pretty weak way to try and make an argument.

One is probably the most dominant single tourney team in history

The other didn't even medal.

O/T but 1987 Canada Cup Team says hi. Lemieux, Gretzky, Messier, Hawerchuk, Gilmour, Coffey, Bourque, Fuhr. Epic.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

He is worth $8.5m, so give him the money. And if he wants to use it as a stepping stone to a bigger contract at the end of this one, well then that's the time to play hard ball. When he's actually asking more than he's worth. But right now he's asking for his fair market value.

I don't understand taking a kid to arbitraton when he is asking for a salary that is well in line with what he brings to the team.

Is he worth $8.5M? Is that fair market value? Keep in mind that we are talking about RFA years. Pietrangelo and Karlsson signed identical 7 year deals with a $6.5M cap hit that pays them $7M in three of those years. In Pietrangelo's case, three UFA years are bought, while in Karlsson's case two UFA years are bought. Drew Doughty's contract averages $7M over 8 years. There is no comparable for Subban to get $8.5M. At most, something in the low $7M range. Around $6.5M is probably a fair salary.

[Finger Cookin]

From twitter:

Originally Posted by @HabsCoachK

Just told that #Habs offered @PKSubban1 a 5yr/$36M contract & were refused. Breakdown:
Yr. 1: $6M
Yrs. 2 & 3: $7M
Yrs. 4 & 5: $8
#mtlhockey

AAV of $7.2. That's not a bad offer, although it gets the Habs three UFA years. I wonder if $40M over 5 years would have got it done? Subsequent tweets from the account says Subban is looking for $8M as a min, and also a longer term.

Twitter profile for this account reads:

"Director of Media & Public Relations, Hawkesbury Hawks Jr A - CCHL, Production Director on Montreal Hockey Talk, Contributor for CBC Radio"

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by FAN

Is he worth $8.5M? Is that fair market value? Keep in mind that we are talking about RFA years. Pietrangelo and Karlsson signed identical 7 year deals with a $6.5M cap hit that pays them $7M in three of those years. In Pietrangelo's case, three UFA years are bought, while in Karlsson's case two UFA years are bought. Drew Doughty's contract averages $7M over 8 years. There is no comparable for Subban to get $8.5M. At most, something in the low $7M range. Around $6.5M is probably a fair salary.

Remember that the cap has gone up since Karlsson signed his deal, too. By about 7%. That means a $7M AAV now is comparable.

Another comparable is Keith (he, Subban, and Karlsson are 3 of the 4 active Norris winners). I think most observers would argue that Keith is worth more to his multiple Norris wins and Stanley Cup wins. His contract is tough to compare, as it is a back-diving deal under the old CBA and Kieth was also 27 when it came into effect. So it would be all UFA years. The first 8 years of his deal have an AAV of just over $7.2M. Accounting for the cap increase since then, that would be about $8.4M today. So that would be the upper end of what Subban should expect IMO.

Quibbling over a few hundred thousand per season seems pretty silly with these numbers and terms being thrown around.

[Da_Chief]

PK's defensive game is taking a beating here. Although he's defensive game can improve he is still a fantastic player. He's better then the like of Karlsson and Yandle etc.

He's one of their 2 franchise players right now, he needs to get paid and Habs messed this up. The guy wins games.

And the guys jumping on the guy who said he just a Norris and led his team team to the Finals knew exactly what that poster was saying but just wana detract his point and jump on him.

When Toews/Kane are getting 10+, Getzlaf/Perry are getting 8+ why shouldn't PK be asking for 8+? he's a game-changer.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by mccalgary71

I don't really get all the fuss over this guy. While he is a very good offensive defenseman. He is horrrribbblle defensively. To try and compare him with Shea Webber is kind of a joke. He is nowhere near the defenseman Weber or the other elite defense are.



Posted from Calgarypuck.com App for Android

Who is comparing him to Shea Weber? Your basically saying he's not the best defenceman on planet Earth. I think the Patrick Kane comparisons were a bit better. A player who might not be as complete as you'd like but one of those players you need to win and can't afford to let go. Is he worth 9-10 million? Maybe not but 8-9 is probably pretty fair based on the new deals coming out and he will easily see it from many teams around the league. Your better off overpaying by a million or so and keeping him than letting him go. Again just watching him play these playoffs I think he's one of those special players who can put a team on his back.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Remember that the cap has gone up since Karlsson signed his deal, too. By about 7%. That means a $7M AAV now is comparable.

Another comparable is Keith (he, Subban, and Karlsson are 3 of the 4 active Norris winners). I think most observers would argue that Keith is worth more to his multiple Norris wins and Stanley Cup wins. His contract is tough to compare, as it is a back-diving deal under the old CBA and Kieth was also 27 when it came into effect. So it would be all UFA years. The first 8 years of his deal have an AAV of just over $7.2M. Accounting for the cap increase since then, that would be about $8.4M today. So that would be the upper end of what Subban should expect IMO.

I would say that all things being equal, and by way of a very sober comparison that factors into consideration position and age, then this would be the ceiling, and Subban should be paid less than that. I think $8.0 is high for him on a multi year deal, and $7.0 is extremely generous by way of comparison to some of the other similarly aged but arguably better defensemen in the League. In my opinion, $7.5 long term should be considered a great deal by both sides: He'll be making more that Pietrangelo and Doughty, both of whom are better players, and will be locked up past UFA eligibility.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Who is comparing him to Shea Weber? Your basically saying he's not the best defenceman on planet Earth. I think the Patrick Kane comparisons were a bit better. A player who might not be as complete as you'd like but one of those players you need to win and can't afford to let go. Is he worth 9-10 million? Maybe not but 8-9 is probably pretty fair based on the new deals coming out and he will easily see it from many teams around the league. Your better off overpaying by a million or so and keeping him than letting him go. Again just watching him play these playoffs I think he's one of those special players who can put a team on his back.

Actually, the Patrick Kane comparison is poor because you are forgetting context. Kane doesn't get $10.5 million by himself. He gets it because of the "twin effect" with Toews. So unless the Habs are actually looking to sign Subban's defensive partner to a similar contract because the pair are so important to the franchise, then the comparison is not particularly valid.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Who is comparing him to Shea Weber?

By the sounds of it, PK Subban is the one making that comparison.

Originally Posted by Hackey

Is he worth 9-10 million? Maybe not but 8-9 is probably pretty fair based on the new deals coming out and he will easily see it from many teams around the league.

But based on the most recent contracts for elite level RFA defensemen, $8.0–9.0 is pretty high. And no, he will not "easily see it from many teams around the league" because the number is prohibitive. He is still an RFA, and that in itself practically guarantees that there will be no offer sheets from any other teams—the cost is too great.

Originally Posted by Hackey

Your better off overpaying by a million or so and keeping him than letting him go. Again just watching him play these playoffs I think he's one of those special players who can put a team on his back.

Again, better off only depending upon what sort of contract he will agree to sign. If he ends up sacrificing UFA years, then he should get top-dollar, but since he is still a RFA, and can expect to recieve at least one more even higher-value deal, then I can understand Montreal's caution. The League is still structured such that RFAs do not qualify for equal compensation to UFAs. Its a really important economic wrinkle that significantly helps to balance the distribution of revenue in such a way that allows every team to be competitive. Montreal does not have the luxury to worry only about keeping Subban—they also must build a team around him.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

By the sounds of it, PK Subban is the one making that comparison.

By the sounds of it? please go on.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I would say that all things being equal, and by way of a very sober comparison that factors into consideration position and age, then this would be the ceiling, and Subban should be paid less than that. I think $8.0 is high for him on a multi year deal, and $7.0 is extremely generous by way of comparison to some of the other similarly aged but arguably better defensemen in the League. In my opinion, $7.5 long term should be considered a great deal by both sides: He'll be making more that Pietrangelo and Doughty, both of whom are better players, and will be locked up past UFA eligibility.

We're on the same wavelength. If he was truly offered $36M/5, and he wants more money and more term, then $45/6 seems like a compromise that both parties should be able to agree to. It wouldn't make either side thrilled, which almost seems like the end goal in a good compromise.

[AcGold]

8.5 definitely worth it. How can they not see he is worth that? He can take the puck end to end just plowing people out of his way when he wants and his opposition will move out of the way knowing they are likely to get hurt if they get in his way. He pretty much will guarantee whatever team he is on makes the playoffs every year, at least imo.

Just watch him get a head of steam and skate with the puck, no other dman in the league has his athleticism, pay the man he's worth it. He's even a class act too. Every other GM has got to be happy Montreal is doing this. Sure there are guys like Doughty getting less but he's underpaid for his value helping carry his team to multiple championships. Dynamic, fast, strong, big dmen aren't exactly abundant

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

By the sounds of it? please go on.

If the rumours are true about the kind of compensation he is seeking on a long term deal, which would effectively put him in the same range as Weber, then I think it is likely that he is implying just that. Subban seems to expect compensation that is on par with what Nashville is paying the best defenseman in the world.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by AcGold

8.5 definitely worth it. How can they not see he is worth that? He can take the puck end to end just plowing people out of his way when he wants and his opposition will move out of the way knowing they are likely to get hurt if they get in his way. He pretty much will guarantee whatever team he is on makes the playoffs every year, at least imo...

Yeah, no. I don't think there is a single player in the world that has that ability.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yeah, no. I don't think there is a single player in the world that has that ability.

Mikka? he was doing it for the Flames in his prime, it wasn't for him we would not be in the playoffs.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

I'd say the most comparable player to PK is Dion. A similar deal would make sense. But for a year or two is say PK ends up with 7.5 to 8 from the arbitration.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If the rumours are true about the kind of compensation he is seeking on a long term deal, which would effectively put him in the same range as Weber, then I think it is likely that he is implying just that. Subban seems to expect compensation that is on par with what Nashville is paying the best defenseman in the world.

Lol. And you made such a big deal out of me "making things up" when if you are half as smart as you think you could have easily put together what I was saying. Come on man your really reaching here and you know it.