Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Doesn't matter how many times you repeat it if its false. Hamas are perpetuating some of the violence. Israel can't just keep pulling the trigger and be seen as victims here. How anyone can simply absolve them of any wrongdoing is beyond me.

You quoted me when I said that those that support Hamas are perpetuating the violence, and you think that is false. You think we should all support Hamas which will stop the violence? Hamas is launching rocket after rocket hoping to kill civilians (Palestinian or Israeli) and building tunnels to kill Israeli civilians. Israel must do something to stop the rockets. Hamas has a goal not to make life better for Palestinians, but to kill all Jews.

Israel can keep pulling the trigger until the threat is gone, just like Canada would in the same situation. I hate the fact the Palestinians are helpless here - but they need to know peace is what Israel wants, provide it and things will change.

Wrongdoing? War sucks, big time. I wish it wasn't taking place. Any time a shot is fired there is a very good potential for something to go wrong. If your thoughts are that Israel is purposely targeting kids, that is too bad. Israel could not do more to change your mind and they probably won't - sometimes bias is impossible to break.

Interesting article:
http://www.greenparty.ca/blogs/20430...a-makes-me-sad

Is Israel a victim here? You bet. How many rockets were fired while the world was silent before Israel responded? Are Palestinians a victim? Yes, however they have many options they continue to not take. Voting Hamas did not help, getting rid of Hamas right now does not help. As long as Hamas is in power and attacking Israel this situation will not end.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel can keep pulling the trigger until the threat is gone, just like Canada would in the same situation. I hate the fact the Palestinians are helpless here - but they need to know peace is what Israel wants, provide it and things will change.

This is typical bologna and meaningless comments from the pro-Israeli folks. They were calm and peaceful and like someone mentioned earlier, all they got was more illegal settlements on their land.

What has the West Bank got for being peaceful?

Israel does want peace, but only in Israel. If Gazans are peaceful nothing will change so what is the point? The borders will still be closed and they will still have illegal settlements built on their land.

I can't imagine why they would accept peace. I know I wouldn't.

[Canuck-Hater]

Its almost shameful that our government still wont budge from its unquestionable support for Israel. No condemnation, no nothing, just more "stop getting hit by missiles and airstrikes" "its your own damn fault for getting blown to pieces" rhetoric.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel can keep pulling the trigger until the threat is gone, just like Canada would in the same situation. I hate the fact the Palestinians are helpless here - but they need to know peace is what Israel wants, provide it and things will change.

I dunno, I like to think Canada wouldn't get involved in the same in the same mess every couple years, and we'd think of some other solution after decades of fighting.

We all know that whenever this current round ends, it's not going to be over. It's going to happen again.

"keep pulling the trigger until the threat is gone" obviously doesn't work.

[Arya Stark]

What Nage and others are failing to understand is that with every pull of the trigger several new terrorists are born. Regular civilians who just lost their children, or fathers and mothers are now your enemy and will be behind the next rocket fired at Israel. Put yourself in their shoes and you just saw your house being demolished from a bomb in the sky and your kids are in that house. Wouldn't you join the resistance?

[WCW Nitro]

If I was Russia, I would say that there were rockets on that Malaysian airlines flight, apparently a country can do whatever it wants in that situation.

[CaptainCrunch]

Only if the Malaysia was firing rockets into Russia.

[MarchHare]

Not sure if this has been posted yet:



The story:

GAZA CITY: A premature baby rescued by Gaza doctors from her dead mother's womb last week has died due to complications and power cuts affecting the intensive care unit where she was treated.

The six-day-old baby was born by emergency Caesarean section on Friday after doctors at Deir al-Balah hospital in central Gaza managed to save her from the womb of her mother, who died when an Israeli tank shell hit her home.

[...]

"The ongoing electricity shortages played a role because her oxygen tubes did not work properly and we had to resuscitate her more than once manually. "Doctors told AFP earlier this week that her vital signs were stable but said she would have to be on the respirator for "at least three more weeks.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/w...w/39374377.cms

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Is Israel a victim here? You bet. How many rockets were fired while the world was silent before Israel responded? Are Palestinians a victim? Yes, however they have many options they continue to not take.

How many innocent Palestinians lost their homes while the world was silent before Hamas responded? How many lost their livelihood? Supplies necessary for life? Or even their lives? Have humanitarian efforts begun in only the last month? Or have they been going on for years trying to help Palestinians from the effects of the conflict between Israel and Palestine?

The world was silent to the rocket attacks before this conflict, but they were also silent to the extreme plight of the Palestinian people, of which Israel will always hold great responsibility. Neither Palestine nor Israel hold moral right or good-standing in this conflict, and it's easy to argue on both sides they haven't for decades. As a recent article pointed out, they want the process, but not peace. They will never go back. Only forward, and it's disingenuous to say they want peace, because it implies compromise. Israel wants peace on the grounds of it winning and their enemies being destroyed.

Is that any worse than a nation like the USA? Not really.
Is that for any reason other than they have no other options? No, I don't believe it is.
But let's be honest about that then. No more praising Israel for being something it isn't, or defending them by saying they want something they don't. This is not good vs. evil. It's desperate vs. desperate. Both nations capable of good doing bad because they're in a corner.

Peace through the destruction of your enemy is not peace. It's simply a result.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Is Israel a victim here? You bet. Are Palestinians a victim? Yes, however

As long as the above is phrased like it is, the below will always be obvious.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

sometimes bias is impossible to break.

Both are victims. Full stop. Or both are victims, however.

Any other phrasing is indicative of bias. One should not be ashamed of their bias.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

If I was Russia, I would say that there were rockets on that Malaysian airlines flight, apparently a country can do whatever it wants in that situation.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Only if the Malaysia was firing rockets into Russia.

I was going to say the same thing. If Malaysia were using airplanes to hide rockets used to fire on Russia, the comparison would be appropriate, but obviously that is not the case.

The fact that Hamas routinely hides people and weapons among the civilian population isn't even debatable. I am not saying that should give Israel the right to destroy any civilian targets they want and I honestly have no idea if some, any or all of the latest targets involved hidden weapons or not. No one here knows, but it likely happens frequently that they do, just based on past events. One could argue that with the population density of Gaza, that the whole strip is essentially a civilian area or a militant area. It certainly makes precision attacks difficult.

I just hope it gets resolved soon because there is no denying that there is a terrible humanitarian situation.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Only if the Malaysia was firing rockets into Russia.

It really is amazing how some people think (or try to push a narrative that they know is not true) that Israel was just minding its own business being a good neighbor and then out of nowhere the rockets started coming in.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

This is typical bologna and meaningless comments from the pro-Israeli folks. They were calm and peaceful and like someone mentioned earlier, all they got was more illegal settlements on their land.

What has the West Bank got for being peaceful?

Israel does want peace, but only in Israel. If Gazans are peaceful nothing will change so what is the point? The borders will still be closed and they will still have illegal settlements built on their land.

I can't imagine why they would accept peace. I know I wouldn't.

This is why there won't be peace, this point of view. I suggest peace and I get a response 'NO!'. The West Bank is peaceful for many reasons, but if there was no physical barrier would there be peace? Israel wants peace, simple as that.

Israel is building settlements and will not likely stop unless there are true negotiations. They are going to offer alternative plots, but that is not the issue, now is it? Israel released Gaza and here we are, rocket attacks. Israel could just as easily give up more land, but people want Jews dead.

What has the West Bank got from being peaceful? For starters, the fact they are not launching missiles means there are no Israeli attacks. There used to be several dozen checkpoints, now there are about 12. The economy is also getting better, there are assorted nations, including Israel, working hard to keep the economy growing in the West Bank. Don't forget they don't have the massive restrictions those in Gaza have. There is even access to Jordanian goods and Israeli goods through multiple border crossings. This would all change if things became violent.

Besides the conspiracy garbage posted in this thread, Israel just wants peace, they have nothing to gain from any of this. Too many other regimes in the region have too much to lose if Palestinians prosper under Israeli leadership. The problem with the regimes now is the threat of groups like Hamas expanding and going after them, which is why now much of the Muslim world is not in Palestine's corner.

I assume this is a good start and a complete contrast to Gaza, where their leadership (Hamas) is executing people on the streets for either being Israeli collaborators, or simply to denounce violence.

Again, why can't we all just challenge ourselves and decide once and for all to put the weapons down?

Even across Canada and the United States, Anti-Israel protesters are becoming more and more violent. I can't see peace anytime soon.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

What Nage and others are failing to understand is that with every pull of the trigger several new terrorists are born. Regular civilians who just lost their children, or fathers and mothers are now your enemy and will be behind the next rocket fired at Israel. Put yourself in their shoes and you just saw your house being demolished from a bomb in the sky and your kids are in that house. Wouldn't you join the resistance?

Or would you start to question your government that's firing thousands of rockets into Israel basically inviting and begging for attacks. Or spending a crap load of money that could go towards food and infrastructure on tunnels into Israel.

The question has to go both ways.

I've said that I don't like how Israel is fighting this battle, its too indiscriminate for my tastes. But I understand the motivation of Israel being sick and tired of the rocket attacks. I understand from a military standpoint that using artillery and bombs on launchers and weapons caches and bolt holes for Hamas gun men is standard in terms of saving soldiers lives. I get that, because the option for Israel is to send massive amounts of troops into every building to secure them and destroy launchers and weapons storage in place, and maybe that's what has to happen to satisfy the international community, maybe Israel needs to soak up a thousand dead soldiers.

But there won't be peace until Hamas' capability to launch rockets and launch attacks through tunnels is gone. At this point there have been a few ceasefire's proposed and Hamas hasn't been interested in them, and as a civilian in that area, I would be just as pissed off at Hamas.

Israel was going to lose the public relations battle on this no matter what, this is basically a David versus Goliath battle, and David's slingshot isn't able to hit its target due to Goliath having a shield. But the perceived threat to Israel is very real and Israel has a responsibility to itself, just as any nation has a responsibility to protect its civilians and remove the threat.

Now can Israel unilaterally declare a ceasefire? They could, but it wouldn't stop Hamas from shooting rockets and building tunnels into Israel and chances are Hamas would use the lull to consolidate, reposition and re-arm.

I feel bad for the innocents in Palestine, they're caught in a war between two parties that will never be able to come to terms with each other, its a nightmare scenario.

And sure Palestinians can continue that circle of death and get angry and join the fight, but at this point, maybe its time that they look inward at their own government and rise up against that.

[AltaGuy]

I find the ease with which you gloss over two topics disturbing, Nage:

1. The reality of military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, which is horrific in its every day humiliations.

2. Ignorance or denial that there are many different viewpoints on the Israeli side, including a large and growing movement that is just as fundamentally wrong and wicked as anything Hamas has to offer (many of whom are part of the governing coalition).

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

It really is amazing how some people think (or try to push a narrative that they know is not true) that Israel was just minding its own business being a good neighbor and then out of nowhere the rockets started coming in.

Uh huh, just like the terror groups in Palestine who would use suicide vests or shoot up buses or launch rockets were being good neighbors.

there is utterly and completely fault on both sides of the equation.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You quoted me when I said that those that support Hamas are perpetuating the violence, and you think that is false. You think we should all support Hamas which will stop the violence? Hamas is launching rocket after rocket hoping to kill civilians (Palestinian or Israeli) and building tunnels to kill Israeli civilians. Israel must do something to stop the rockets. Hamas has a goal not to make life better for Palestinians, but to kill all Jews.

Israel can keep pulling the trigger until the threat is gone, just like Canada would in the same situation. I hate the fact the Palestinians are helpless here - but they need to know peace is what Israel wants, provide it and things will change.

Wrongdoing? War sucks, big time. I wish it wasn't taking place. Any time a shot is fired there is a very good potential for something to go wrong. If your thoughts are that Israel is purposely targeting kids, that is too bad. Israel could not do more to change your mind and they probably won't - sometimes bias is impossible to break.

Interesting article:
http://www.greenparty.ca/blogs/20430...a-makes-me-sad

Is Israel a victim here? You bet. How many rockets were fired while the world was silent before Israel responded? Are Palestinians a victim? Yes, however they have many options they continue to not take. Voting Hamas did not help, getting rid of Hamas right now does not help. As long as Hamas is in power and attacking Israel this situation will not end.

Yet to date, Hamas has never used those tunnels to attack civilians. All operations out of those tunnels have been targeted at the IDF, when they could have easily caused more casualties by targeting nearby towns.

Seems as though Hamas, a terrorist organization, might be holding itself to a higher standard than the IDF.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel is building settlements and will not likely stop unless there are true negotiations. They are going to offer alternative plots, but that is not the issue, now is it? Israel released Gaza and here we are, rocket attacks. Israel could just as easily give up more land, but people want Jews dead.

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I don't understand what you are saying. One of the motives for the attacks on Israel are new settlements that are expanding Israel and shrinking what is left of Gaza. Isn't it fair to say that new settlements should immediately stop and people who continue to settle be prosecuted?

That seems like a reasonable starting point (along with a cease fire by Hamas) to me.

Originally Posted by _Q_

Yet to date, Hamas has never used those tunnels to attack civilians. All operations out of those tunnels have been targeted at the IDF, when they could have easily caused more casualties by targeting nearby towns.

Seems as though Hamas, a terrorist organization, might be holding itself to a higher standard than the IDF.

What about the rockets?

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I don't understand what you are saying. One of the motives for the attacks on Israel are new settlements that are expanding Israel and shrinking what is left of Gaza. Isn't it fair to say that new settlements should immediately stop and people who continue to settle be prosecuted?

That seems like a reasonable starting point (along with a cease fire by Hamas) to me.



What about the rockets?

It's very telling to me that my request of people such as Nage to list Palestinian grievances went unanswered. He is completely uninterested in any resolution other than the one in his mind. That is his right, as it is the right of a pro-Palestinian fanatic to unequivocally demand the converse. But it's also our right to realize that he's not all the interested in a meaningful and realistic path forward for the region. I hate to say it, but there is nothing gained from trying to engage Nage in the general conversation of this thread.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

What about the rockets?

Well Hamas can come out with a statement similar to Israel's.

"These rockets are not targeted at civilians. After the IDF terrorists launch attacks at the civilian population of Palestine, they hide amongst women and children like cowards. It is unfortunate that some of our attacks have killed civilians, but Israel must stop their incursions on our sovereign territory if they wants the rockets to stop. It has been proven time and time again that Israel only wants land and is not interested in peace. Until the Israeli army is destroyed will there ever be peace for the Israeli people. "

It's just as far fetched as the Israeli response honestly.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You quoted me when I said that those that support Hamas are perpetuating the violence, and you think that is false. You think we should all support Hamas which will stop the violence? Hamas is launching rocket after rocket hoping to kill civilians (Palestinian or Israeli) and building tunnels to kill Israeli civilians. Israel must do something to stop the rockets. Hamas has a goal not to make life better for Palestinians, but to kill all Jews.

Israel can keep pulling the trigger until the threat is gone, just like Canada would in the same situation. I hate the fact the Palestinians are helpless here - but they need to know peace is what Israel wants, provide it and things will change.

Wrongdoing? War sucks, big time. I wish it wasn't taking place. Any time a shot is fired there is a very good potential for something to go wrong. If your thoughts are that Israel is purposely targeting kids, that is too bad. Israel could not do more to change your mind and they probably won't - sometimes bias is impossible to break.

Interesting article:
http://www.greenparty.ca/blogs/20430...a-makes-me-sad

Is Israel a victim here? You bet. How many rockets were fired while the world was silent before Israel responded? Are Palestinians a victim? Yes, however they have many options they continue to not take. Voting Hamas did not help, getting rid of Hamas right now does not help. As long as Hamas is in power and attacking Israel this situation will not end.

Huge stretch to think that's what I was suggesting, but it seems you are incapable of rational thought so I'm not suprised you'd start leveling that accusation. And I did state that Hamas and its supporters are perpetuating part of the violence. But if the latest stretch of Isreali attacks isn't "perpetuating voilence" as well, I guess I don't know what violence means. You simply can't ignore the numbers and the results.

In the case of the Israeli military force required to deal with the threat of Hamas, it has to be controlled and measured as an appropriate response to the threat they face. I don't see any way that racking up the deathtoll of Palestinian civilians helps Israel in any way. The Palestinian people need help...and who right now is helping them? Stephen Harper? Barack Obama? They are naturally going to turn to the only group that seems to recognize their plight and offers some form of resistance. The more they get bombarded the more anti-Israel sentiment will grow. Violence perpetuates violence.