Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by blankall

The invasion of Gaza was in response to the missiles and later discovered network of tunnels into Israel. That is not a police matter in any country, it's an act of war.

The tunnels were discovered in 2013. Another blatant made-up fact by Blankall. The attack on Gaza had nothing to do with tunnels into Israel. Israel knew about the tunnels way before that.

Anybody without a bias like you have shown can see the murder of the Israeli teens is what set this thing off.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

The tunnels were discovered in 2013. Another blatant made-up fact by Blankall. The attack on Gaza had nothing to do with tunnels into Israel. Israel knew about the tunnels way before that.

Anybody without a bias like you have shown can see the murder of the Israeli teens is what set this thing off.

The extent of tunnels were not known until troops were on the ground. Tunnels into Israel have been known since at least 2006, since Gilad Shalit was kidnapped through one of them and held prisoner for 5 years. So another blatant made-up fact by Arya Stark.

The apparent missed intelligence that Israel did not know the extent of the tunnels is widely criticized in Israel, and has even prompted a public inquiry (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...re-kerry.html#).

So Blankall is very factually correct in his statement; the offensive began after rockets increased their intensity (because of the actions on both sides after the Israeli teens deaths) to a point where Israel had to respond with force; later they discovered how extensive these tunnel systems were, and have expanded operations.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by blankall

That lone cell theory was also disproved. There is no evidence that orders came from the top if Hamas' command, but that does not mean local Hamas operatives wouldn't have known where the killers were or helped them.

That's not true, what has actually happened is that a Israeli police spokesman told a Buzzfeed and a BBC reporter that the killers were operating as a lone cell, the reporters tweeted it, and now the spokesman has backtrack from his comment. Everything in the case is essentially based on conjecture at this point.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/28/5943097...ctually-kill-3

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

The extent of tunnels were not known until troops were on the ground. Tunnels into Israel have been known since at least 2006, since Gilad Shalit was kidnapped through one of them and held prisoner for 5 years. So another blatant made-up fact by Arya Stark.

The apparent missed intelligence that Israel did not know the extent of the tunnels is widely criticized in Israel, and has even prompted a public inquiry (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...re-kerry.html#).

So Blankall is very factually correct in his statement; the offensive began after rockets increased their intensity (because of the actions on both sides after the Israeli teens deaths) to a point where Israel had to respond with force; later they discovered how extensive these tunnel systems were, and have expanded operations.

Ok, My point still stands. The tunnels weren't the reason for the invasion. The murder of the three Israeli teens was the main culprit.

[Nage Waza]

These Hamas 'truthers' in this thread aren't even making plausible arguments at this point.

According to the Hamas Truthers For example, "the rockets that Hamas has been firing for months didn't cause Israel to attack, it was the murder of three teens. Therefor, Israel is terrible! The rockets that are currently being fired at Israel of which Israel is returning fire are also not to blame, it was the murders! See what I mean?"

"Hamas needs the tunnels, I don't blame them, since they need supplies, and they need rockets too, in case Hamas decides to murder more Israeli civilians!"

"Israel didn't give up Gaza as a peaceful gesture, it is because they are terrible bloodthirsty people!"

These repeated arguments are beyond stupid, I cannot fathom how any reasonable person could think they make sense. It is almost no wonder Hamas is firing rockets...

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

The original charter of hamas says the same thing, Muslims,Jews,and Christians can live peacefully in one country called Palestine.

I got no horse in this race. I just don't think people, regardless of religion, hoping for a unified democratic society where equal human rights are given to everyone are wrong. Whether you call that place Palestine or Israel or Palesisrael, it seems like a nice idea - although idealistic and unfortunately near impossible.


But, it's completely baffling to me that you can look at this quote:

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Article 31: ...."Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security."

And equate this as the same thing as living peacefully as equals when it starts off with "UNDER THE SHADOW OF ISLAM." Hamas isn't Palestine, I understand that, but it's obvious that Hamas has no intention of living equally among the Jewish public.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'll repeat a question that went unanswered several pages ago. Maybe blankall and Naga will be good enough to offer their opinion.

How can Israel ever hope to achieve peace with Gazans after killing hundreds of non-combatants including women and children?

Do you honestly expect the Palestinians in Gaza to one day think "I understand why Israel did this"? "It was because Gaza elected a Hamas government. My wife or child is dead, my home is in ruins but we, ourselves are to blame, all is forgiven."

In the history of mankind, when has that ever happened?

Yeah, the Kurds and Turkey are pretty peaceful now.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

These Hamas 'truthers' in this thread aren't even making plausible arguments at this point.

According to the Hamas Truthers For example, "the rockets that Hamas has been firing for months didn't cause Israel to attack, it was the murder of three teens. Therefor, Israel is terrible! The rockets that are currently being fired at Israel of which Israel is returning fire are also not to blame, it was the murders! See what I mean?"

"Hamas needs the tunnels, I don't blame them, since they need supplies, and they need rockets too, in case Hamas decides to murder more Israeli civilians!"

"Israel didn't give up Gaza as a peaceful gesture, it is because they are terrible bloodthirsty people!"

These repeated arguments are beyond stupid, I cannot fathom how any reasonable person could think they make sense. It is almost no wonder Hamas is firing rockets...

As far as I know and last I checked was yesterday only 3 civilians have been killed by Hamas while 43 Israeli soldiers have been killed by Hamas. That seems pretty disproportionate when you consider almost a thousand dead civilians in Gaza.

Maybe Hamas is doing a better job at killing their actual enemy than Israel is.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

As far as I know and last I checked was yesterday only 3 civilians have been killed by Hamas while 43 Israeli soldiers have been killed by Hamas. That seems pretty disproportionate when you consider almost a thousand dead civilians in Gaza.

Maybe Hamas is doing a better job at killing their actual enemy than Israel is.

Hamas hides behind Palestinians, and Israeli soldiers put themselves into the line of fire to minimize Hamas' goal of civilian casualties, on both sides. This is pretty obvious based on the numbers you have provided.

I am unconvinced you have a clue what you are posting.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Hamas hides behind Palestinians, and Israeli soldiers put themselves into the line of fire to minimize Hamas' goal of civilian casualties, on both sides. This is pretty obvious based on the numbers you have provided.

I am unconvinced you have a clue what you are posting.

Sweet... Do you have any new arguments that we can discredit? Because this one has gotten old and tired.

[Moderator]

Please stay on topic. The topic is not other posters, if you disagree with another post argue the point. Or if you think another post goes too far or is obviously nonsense, just ignore it and don't engage.

Otherwise we will have to lock the thread, or delete all posts that contain anything directed at another poster (i.e. if the post contains "you").

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Hamas hides behind Palestinians, and Israeli soldiers put themselves into the line of fire to minimize Hamas' goal of civilian casualties, on both sides. This is pretty obvious based on the numbers you have provided.

I am unconvinced you have a clue what you are posting.

Does Israel bare any responsibility for civilian death in this conflict in your mind? Or are they simply free to fire at will while conveniently blaming others for the catastrophic results their bombs are unleashing?

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Hamas hides behind Palestinians, and Israeli soldiers put themselves into the line of fire to minimize Hamas' goal of civilian casualties, on both sides. This is pretty obvious based on the numbers you have provided.

I am unconvinced you have a clue what you are posting.

Israel should be given a Nobel peace prize for not killing more civilians. Truly heroic.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

As far as I know and last I checked was yesterday only 3 civilians have been killed by Hamas while 43 Israeli soldiers have been killed by Hamas. That seems pretty disproportionate when you consider almost a thousand dead civilians in Gaza.

Maybe Hamas is doing a better job at killing their actual enemy than Israel is.

I think it's more likely that the IDF is the only targets Hamas has access to, it's not like Israeli civilians are heading down to Gaza to do a little shopping and take in the sights.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I got no horse in this race. I just don't think people, regardless of religion, hoping for a unified democratic society where equal human rights are given to everyone are wrong. Whether you call that place Palestine or Israel or Palesisrael, it seems like a nice idea - although idealistic and unfortunately near impossible.


But, it's completely baffling to me that you can look at this quote:


And equate this as the same thing as living peacefully as equals when it starts off with "UNDER THE SHADOW OF ISLAM." Hamas isn't Palestine, I understand that, but it's obvious that Hamas has no intention of living equally among the Jewish public.

Why didn't you quote what I said right after that? I made it clear that I don't trust hamas for one second that they're sincere in their desire for peaceful coexistence in one state. I also don't trust any Israeli politician who says they want peaceful coexistence in one state. Whoever says this from both sides is lying, all they want is more land.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

These Hamas 'truthers' in this thread aren't even making plausible arguments at this point.

According to the Hamas Truthers For example, "the rockets that Hamas has been firing for months didn't cause Israel to attack, it was the murder of three teens. Therefor, Israel is terrible! The rockets that are currently being fired at Israel of which Israel is returning fire are also not to blame, it was the murders! See what I mean?"

"Hamas needs the tunnels, I don't blame them, since they need supplies, and they need rockets too, in case Hamas decides to murder more Israeli civilians!"

"Israel didn't give up Gaza as a peaceful gesture, it is because they are terrible bloodthirsty people!"

These repeated arguments are beyond stupid, I cannot fathom how any reasonable person could think they make sense. It is almost no wonder Hamas is firing rockets...

I really do wish one of the mods would rein you in. Making up mock quotes with such messages and impugning others in this thread in such a derogatory fashion is not only insulting, but rather uncivilized.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Why didn't you quote what I said right after that?

Because it's irrelevant? You said Hamas was saying the same thing about living peacefully as equal in reply to me. Yes, you obviously don't believe Hamas has that intention but that's also because Hamas has never said they had that intention. They have made it perfectly clear they do not see Jewish as "equals." Now whether Rivlin believes it, he has at least stated that everyone deserves basic and equal human rights regardless of religion.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

These Hamas 'truthers' in this thread aren't even making plausible arguments at this point.

According to the Hamas Truthers For example, "the rockets that Hamas has been firing for months didn't cause Israel to attack, it was the murder of three teens. Therefor, Israel is terrible! The rockets that are currently being fired at Israel of which Israel is returning fire are also not to blame, it was the murders! See what I mean?"

"Hamas needs the tunnels, I don't blame them, since they need supplies, and they need rockets too, in case Hamas decides to murder more Israeli civilians!"

"Israel didn't give up Gaza as a peaceful gesture, it is because they are terrible bloodthirsty people!"

These repeated arguments are beyond stupid, I cannot fathom how any reasonable person could think they make sense. It is almost no wonder Hamas is firing rockets...

Why must you always insult others? It really hurts you.

As far as I'm aware, you're misrepresenting the arguments entirely. I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose, or if you haven't bothered to try, but I can try to clear it up for you:

"Israel was withstanding the more relaxed rocket fire (if you can call rocket fire 'relaxed') with relative ease. Once the Israeli teens were murdered, Israel reacted too strongly without requisite evidence or care of humanitarian law. Hamas then increased their rocket fire to an intolerable and dangerous rate, causing Israel to invade."

"Hamas needed the original tunnels to Egypt in order to obtain supplies for their people. In this way, the tunnels served a needed purpose as humanitarian aid wasn't enough. Unfortunately, Hamas also used the tunnels to bring in weapons and created separate tunnels to attack Israel. For this reason, Israel needs to eliminate them."

"Israel didn't give up Gaza as a peaceful gesture, they never gave up Gaza. Why they did it (or didn't) is likely due to self-protection, both militarily and politically."

This, of course, can't speak for everyone. I can't begin to assume I know what every one of the people you can "truthers" stand for, but as far as I have seen the above are more representative of the views of some of those without a pro-Israel bias, including myself. Regardless, it is extremely unhelpful to lump multiple different people under the same label and to purposely misrepresent them. What do you hope to gain?

[Moderator]

Maybe the previous warning wasn't visible enough...

The topic is not other posters, if you disagree with another post argue the point. Or if you think another post goes too far or is obviously nonsense, just ignore it and don't engage.

Otherwise we will have to lock the thread, or delete all posts that contain anything directed at another poster (i.e. if the post contains "you").

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Because it's irrelevant? You said Hamas was saying the same thing about living peacefully as equal in reply to me. Yes, you obviously don't believe Hamas has that intention but that's also because Hamas has never said they had that intention. They have made it perfectly clear they do not see Jewish as "equals." Now whether Rivlin believes it, he has at least stated that everyone deserves basic and equal human rights regardless of religion.

He backs settlements. No one who backs settlements truly believes in basic and equal human rights. What both sides are basically saying is that yes once we establish our side as dominant, whether religious or land wise, then yes we can live peacefully.