Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

I think Hamas would love if they had access to the best weapons in the world and to be funded by the United States of America, but they don't have any other way to bring in weapons other than tunnels since Israel and Egypt have both borders closed. If this is a war, and not an assault on Gaza shouldn't Hamas be allowed to have weapons too? They would be more than happy to have f-16's that could rain down only on Israeli soldiers and not kill one innocent civilians but rockets they can't aim at all other than pointing it in one direction is all they have.

I have zero problems with the tunnels. They should be built and be continued to be built as long as the borders are closed. They need a way to get in their supplies.

There are different types of tunnels.

There are tunnels going into Egypt that bring supplies. There is a network of tunnels going into Israel that serve no purpose but to allow armed militants to kill Israeli civilians.

Hamas has spent tens of millions of dollars building tunnels into Israel. The only possible reaction to these tunnels is for Israel to find and destroy them. Gazans will die when Israel does this. I'm not sure how anyone can support that.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

And from the same article is apparently a staunch supporter of democracy, human rights and the cooperation of Jews and Arabs.



Your post seems to illustrate nicely the way both extreme sides are operating; ignoring the other side of the story.

And as a side, regardless of whether it's called Israel or Palestine, a one-state solution that would see democracy, cooperation and human rights doesn't seem overly evil to me, just idealistic and maybe, unfortunately, impossible.

Wants all the territory, rejects a palestinian state ... but wants Arab/Jew cooperation? That article makes no sense.

What kind of cooperation can exist if someone rejects everything the other side wants?

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

So Israel's new president is opposed to a Palestinian state, wants to expand israeli territory, and backs more settlements.


"Reuven Rivlin, who was sworn in on Thursday as Israel's 10th president, is a far-right hawk with a quirky sense of humour who is known as the guard-dog of democracy....He has made no secret of his vision of a Greater Israel encompassing all the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean......Considered to be among the Likud's most hawkish members, Rivlin has never hidden his opposition to the creation of a Palestinian state and is a staunch backer of Jewish settlements."



http://news.yahoo.com/reuven-rivlin-...222655327.html

He is an interesting guy. His views are relatively common, but a jaded eye would see that his hard support of settlements overrides his hopes for democracy. This view increases the likelihood for violent opposition among Palestinians and because of this protracts the conflict enormously.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are different types of tunnels.



There are tunnels going into Egypt that bring supplies. There is a network of tunnels going into Israel that serve no purpose but to allow armed militants to kill Israeli civilians.



Hamas has spent tens of millions of dollars building tunnels into Israel. The only possible reaction to these tunnels is for Israel to find and destroy them. Gazans will die when Israel does this. I'm not sure how anyone can support that.

If my timeline serves me correctly, the tunnels into Israel came into being at the discovery of the supply tunnels, some of which were closed, harming Gaza's lifeline in combination with the escalated tensions.

I don't want to speak for Arya, but I would assume they support the original purpose of the tunnels used to actually help the Palestinian people, not the underground infiltration tunnels. I could be wrong, and if so, then I disagree with that support, but I too support the original intention of the tunnels. Humanitarian foreign aid cannot support Gaza on it's own, and while the purpose of the blockades is obviously to squeeze the Hamas until they pop, the squeeze is hurting Palestinians, so Hamas did what they had to do.

As I said earlier, Hamas is losing support because of their current inability to bring in supplies for their people, so to me, the blockade method seems to be a good approach, and less dangerous to civilian lives than ground and air assaults.

Were I Israel, I would worry less about rocket stores and Hamas hiding in hospitals and schools, and focus the entirety of my attention on the tunnels, and strengthening the squeeze on Gaza if you want to take over in a less damaging way. It's foolish to bomb out hospitals and school and use reasoning essentially no better than "Hamas dared us to." You can withstand the rocket attacks, so continue to take them, and move your assault where you can hit Hamas harder while avoiding civilians (the tunnels). Bombing hospitals at the hint of a rocket stash turns people harder against you.

Is an assault on the tunnels possible without a ground invasion? I'm honestly not sure, but if you can avoid bombing out civilian building while you do it, then go for it.

[longsuffering]

I'll repeat a question that went unanswered several pages ago. Maybe blankall and Naga will be good enough to offer their opinion.

How can Israel ever hope to achieve peace with Gazans after killing hundreds of non-combatants including women and children?

Do you honestly expect the Palestinians in Gaza to one day think "I understand why Israel did this"? "It was because Gaza elected a Hamas government. My wife or child is dead, my home is in ruins but we, ourselves are to blame, all is forgiven."

In the history of mankind, when has that ever happened?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

The Kurds in Iraq have fought several bloody wars with the Iraqi government over the past 50 years. They certainly didn't reach this point solely with negotiation. There's no question that Hamas has been a curse to Gazans and Palestinians in general and that they deserve the lion's share of the blame for their rocket attacks (and the subsequent counter-attacks) as well as the blockades that are a major source of Gaza's misery, but your wrong about the settlements. Palestine will have to push Israel on the settlement because time after time Israel has shown that's is satisfied with the status quo, and who can blame them after all the settler population is growing steadily and they overwhelmingly for the parties of the governing coalition.

I never said they didn't try to fight for their independence. I said they didn't resort to terrorist attacks during the last 10 years while Iraq was in chaos. In fact they don't even resort to terrorist attacks now while Iraq is falling apart.

Israel might be wrong in a lot of things, but it certainly doesn't justify terrorism as a way to try and fix those 'wrongs.'

Hamas has to go not to protect Israel, but to protect the Palestinian people. That is something most people here miss. Their stated goal might be the destruction of Israel, but their real purpose is to keep the Palestinian people living in fear while they use them as puppets to get what they want.

[Bane]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'll repeat a question that went unanswered several pages ago. Maybe blankall and Naga will be good enough to offer their opinion.

How can Israel ever hope to achieve peace with Gazans after killing hundreds of non-combatants including women and children?

Do you honestly expect the Palestinians in Gaza to one day think "I understand why Israel did this"? "It was because Gaza elected a Hamas government. My wife or child is dead, my home is in ruins but we, ourselves are to blame, all is forgiven."

In the history of mankind, when has that ever happened?

Germany post WWII


However, I can't see that happening with this conflict.

[cDnStealth]

Post WWII Japan as well.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'll repeat a question that went unanswered several pages ago. Maybe blankall and Naga will be good enough to offer their opinion.

How can Israel ever hope to achieve peace with Gazans after killing hundreds of non-combatants including women and children?

Do you honestly expect the Palestinians in Gaza to one day think "I understand why Israel did this"? "It was because Gaza elected a Hamas government. My wife or child is dead, my home is in ruins but we, ourselves are to blame, all is forgiven."

In the history of mankind, when has that ever happened?

Since we are talking about expectations based on the results of historical events/wars, does it ever work out in the long run that long lasting peace is achieved through stop-gap measures like temporary ceasefires and self-imposed stalemates?

It seems to me that true peace doesn't typically occur until one side is unconditionally defeated (which of course, usually has a cost to it).

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

And from the same article is apparently a staunch supporter of democracy, human rights and the cooperation of Jews and Arabs.



Your post seems to illustrate nicely the way both extreme sides are operating; ignoring the other side of the story.

And as a side, regardless of whether it's called Israel or Palestine, a one-state solution that would see democracy, cooperation and human rights doesn't seem overly evil to me, just idealistic and maybe, unfortunately, impossible.

The original charter of hamas says the same thing, Muslims,Jews,and Christians can live peacefully in one country called Palestine.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

The original charter of hamas says the same thing, Muslims,Jews,and Christians can live peacefully in one country called Palestine.

And they will do this after essentially killing all the Jews?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

The original charter of hamas says the same thing, Muslims,Jews,and Christians can live peacefully in one country called Palestine.

Can you please show me where that is in the Charter? I'm assuming your talking about the 1988 Charter right?

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www....ml?chocaid=397

I believe that Hamas has stated that the only time that they Jews and Christians can live peacefully in a Palestine is if they suborn themselves as second class citizens, and pay a heavy tax.

[smoothpops]

55 pages of the same back and forth that people have been having for the last 50+ years. clearly that's not getting anybody any closer to resolving the issue at hand, or saving any lives. I've seen maybe 4 posts in this entire thread actually musing over feasible solutions. At some point your fingers have to be getting tired of pointing to the other side while simultaneously managing to plug your ears to any reason from the other side.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

The original charter of hamas says the same thing, Muslims,Jews,and Christians can live peacefully in one country called Palestine.

This is the quote you are mentioning I gather:
'Nor is it directed against any one member of our people in order to compete with him or replace him. There is nothing of that at all. It will never set out against any Muslims or against the non-Muslims who make peace with it, here or anywhere else. It will only be of help to all associations and organizations which act against the Zionist enemy and those who revolve in its orbit. Hamas posits Islam as a way of life, it is its faith and its yardstick for judging. Whoever posits Islam as a way of life, anywhere, and regardless of whether it is an organization, a state, or any other group, Hamas are its soldiers, nothing else.'

That's well and good, but when it follows these quotes in the same charter, you can't really believe they would let Jews or Christians live peacefully in their land:

"Therefore, you can see them making consistent efforts [in that direction] by way of publicity and movies, curricula of education and culture, using as their intermediaries their craftsmen who are part of the various Zionist Organizations which take on all sorts of names and shapes such as: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, gangs of spies and the like. All of them are nests of saboteurs and sabotage. Those Zionist organizations control vast material resources, which enable them to fulfill their mission amidst societies, with a view of implementing Zionist goals and sowing the concepts that can be of use to the enemy. Those organizations operate [in a situation] where Islam is absent from the arena and alienated from its people. Thus, the Muslims must fulfill their duty in confronting the schemes of those saboteurs. When Islam will retake possession of [the means to] guide the life [of the Muslims], it will wipe out those organizations which are the enemy of humanity and Islam."


Little broad definition of a zionist, as anyone who operates with Islam absent in their life.

Then you have this specifically against Jews:


"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)."

"Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.” Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad."


"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”"

"It joins its efforts to all those who are active on the Palestinian scene, but more steps need to be taken by the Arab and Islamic peoples and Islamic associations throughout the Arab and Islamic world in order to make possible the next round with the Jews, the merchants of war. “We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loves not corrupters.”"

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'll repeat a question that went unanswered several pages ago. Maybe blankall and Naga will be good enough to offer their opinion.

How can Israel ever hope to achieve peace with Gazans after killing hundreds of non-combatants including women and children?

Do you honestly expect the Palestinians in Gaza to one day think "I understand why Israel did this"? "It was because Gaza elected a Hamas government. My wife or child is dead, my home is in ruins but we, ourselves are to blame, all is forgiven."

In the history of mankind, when has that ever happened?

Here's the crux the other way Longsuffer.

you have to ask the opposite question, How can Palestine expect to reach a peaceful relationship with Israel as long as they continue to try to rocket attack Israeli citizens, use tunnels to attack Israeli citizens and have used random shootings and bomb attacks to kill Israeli citizens.

Israel has spent a ton of money on their defense and especially on their ballistic defense because of that.

Someone a few pages back said, that Israel shouldn't act like they do because its unlikely that they'll be wiped off of the map. But the bottom line Israeli psyche is that they can't trust anyone with their nations future except themselves, because they can't trust their survival to anyone else.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Can you please show me where that is in the Charter? I'm assuming your talking about the 1988 Charter right?

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www....ml?chocaid=397

I believe that Hamas has stated that the only time that they Jews and Christians can live peacefully in a Palestine is if they suborn themselves as second class citizens, and pay a heavy tax.

I was referring to Article 31: ...."Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security." Don't get me wrong, I don't think for one second that hamas' main objective in a united Palestine is peaceful coexistence, nor do I believe Israeli propaganda that a greater israel will mean harmony for everyone. Both parties who advocate for one state want one thing, more land.

[Nyah]

Here's something refreshing. Remembering that aside from Hamas and the Israeli gov't, there are people on both sides who really just want this over with, and want peace:

Israel Loves Palestine: https://www.facebook.com/IsraelLovesPalestine
Palestine Loves Israel: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pales...09640082469004

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I was referring to Article 31: ...."Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security." Don't get me wrong, I don't think for one second that hamas' main objective in a united Palestine is peaceful coexistence, nor do I believe Israeli propaganda that a greater israel will mean harmony for everyone. Both parties who advocate for one state want one thing, more land.

In an interview with one of Hamas' leaders after the founding of Hamas and the creation of the charter, he basically said that Christians and Jews could live in a Palestine as long as they didn't impeded the goals and directives of Hamas and Islam.

And it wouldn't have been an equal citizenship. it would have been a loose relationship of protection.

In otherword's under Hamas they would have been like the family dog. With the intent of humiliation and degradation.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Nyah

Here's something refreshing. Remembering that aside from Hamas and the Israeli gov't, there are people on both sides who really just want this over with, and want peace:

Israel Loves Palestine: https://www.facebook.com/IsraelLovesPalestine
Palestine Loves Israel: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pales...09640082469004

And they're the ones that are going to have to pass the message of no more to their governments, however I do believe that Hamas would deal with it differently then Israel's government.

This whole thing is the Hatfield and McCoys with a lot longer of a history.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In an interview with one of Hamas' leaders after the founding of Hamas and the creation of the charter, he basically said that Christians and Jews could live in a Palestine as long as they didn't impeded the goals and directives of Hamas and Islam.

And it wouldn't have been an equal citizenship. it would have been a loose relationship of protection.

In otherword's under Hamas they would have been like the family dog. With the intent of humiliation and degradation.

It's a moot point now, hamas has finally agreed to 2 states with the 1967 borders.