Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Source please. I love how how you and Blankall pass your opinions as facts and provide no sources. "parents now beg their children to not kill themselves because they might lose their homes"...as if you know that to be fact. And like the parents beg their children only for their homes, it couldn't be because they don't want to lose their kid. You are a propaganda machine.
Pretty easily actually. You can either be bombed by Israel whenever a war breaks out or be in Israel when Israel decides to massacre thousands of innocent people. I'd rather be in Israel too.

There is nothing to be unsure about settlements. They are illegal. Plain and simple. Israel continues to break international laws. If this was Palestinians building settlements on Israeli land I think we know how sure you'd be.

Arab Israelis build homes within Israel all of the time. In 1949 Jordan expelled every Jew from the West Bank, including the old Jewish quarter of East Jerusalem.

I don't see why Israel has to accept millions of Arabs within their borders, but Israeli settlers living in the West Bank is unacceptable. Particularly when the majority are moving into the area around East Jerusalem.

It was illegal for Jordan to have removed the Jews from the West Bank in the first place. The thing about this conflict you are going to find is that if you look for it Israel and the Arabs are both doing "illegal" things. It's a war and conflict over land. Holding one side to a standard of perfection and letting the other get away with murder is ridiculous.

People also act like Israelis moving into disputed land is some anomaly and modern colonization. It's not. Many similar disputes over land between ethnic/religious/national groups are happening all over the world.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel implemented a policy of bulldozing homes as a response to suicide murders.

What about cases like the one I posted yesterday, wherein 137 homes were demolished and Israel's justice minister said: ‘I don’t know what the legal status is. Do it quickly, and may the God of Israel be with you.’

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel implemented a policy of bulldozing homes as a response to suicide murders. It appears to have worked, there is a dramatic decrease in suicide attacks. Parents now beg their kids to ignore the Hamas thugs, afraid of their homes being destroyed. Terrible it got to that. Israel would have preferred peace.

Unfortunately none of this is verifiably true. In fact, sources from both sides (including the Israeli army) have stated something contrary to your belief:

Israel stopped using home demolitions as a punitive measure in 2005 following an Israeli army report that said the policy did not act as an effective deterrent against terrorism

http://972mag.com/the-return-of-puni...litions/92503/

In fact, your claim about parents now begging their children seems like nothing more than the same justification IDF gave at the outset.

It is terrible it got to "that," "that" being a violation of IHL, laws which, conveniently, Israel chooses not to acknowledge:
http://web.stanford.edu/group/scai/i...emolitions.pdf

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yes.

In the last few weeks, it has become pretty clear that Israel is killing civilians intentionally, and with some political goal in mind. There is a word for that.

Umm, no it hasn't and the word for it is bullsh-t.

What is clear though is that Hamas is cowering behind and sacrificing civilians while firing rockets at civilians.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...45d_story.html

After more than a week of steady attacks, Israel halted its air attacks at 9 a.m. Tuesday, heeding an Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire.

But Hamas militants did not agree to the cease-fire. The military wing of the Islamist organization started lobbing mortar rounds at Israel within minutes after Israel’s attacks stopped.

At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.

Israel said that more than 140 rockets and mortars were launched at it from Gaza during the day. One of the attacks caused the first fatality on the Israeli side when a man was struck by a mortar shell Tuesday evening.

The Japanese daily Mainichi’s correspondent in Gaza reported on 21 July:http://mainichi.jp/select/news/20140...30069000c.html

It's a Japanese language link but here's a quote in english

Hamas criticizes that “Israel massacres civilians”. On the other hand, it tries to use evacuating civilians and journalists by stopping them and turning them into “human shields”, counteracting thoroughly with its guerrilla tactics…

Hamas’s “Human Shield” strategy is also aimed at foreign journalists…During the current battle, Hamas’s checkpoint was bombarded, and there was temporary checkpoint at another location. To some 20 journalists who wished to leave, Hamas staff member suddenly told, “Israel closed the checkpoint… However, when I called IDF personnel at the checkpoint, he said that “We haven’t got attacked and we are open as usual…”. While were discussing what to do, the same Hamas staff member shouted, “in 5 minutes Israel seems to conduct an airstrike on here. Return immediately to Gaza!” All the journalists returned to Gaza by car. But we remembered that Hamas, during the conflict with Israel in November 2012, also closed checkpoints to block outflow.

And of course how they hide amongst civilians by dressing up like women and children, already posted before from our own Globe and Mail:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle19683732/

The presence of militant fighters in Shejaia became clear Sunday afternoon when, under the cover of a humanitarian truce intended to allow both sides to remove the dead and wounded, several armed Palestinians scurried from the scene.

Some bore their weapons openly, slung over their shoulder, but at least two, disguised as women, were seen walking off with weapons partly concealed under their robes. Another had his weapon wrapped in a baby blanket and held on his chest as if it were an infant.

[blankall]

^^^^

My issue with all this is that Israel is invading Gaza and many civilians are dieing. There are plenty of arguments to make that Israel is unjust or that Israel is responding way to heavy handedly.

Why does there need to be this constant attempt to prove that Israel is the most evil country in the world. Every time something bad happens, there is an attempt to turn it into this smoking gun that finally proves Israel is out for genocide.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

^^^^

My issue with all this is that Israel is invading Gaza and many civilians are dieing. There are plenty of arguments to make that Israel is unjust or that Israel is responding way to heavy handedly.

Why does there need to be this constant attempt to prove that Israel is the most evil country in the world. Every time something bad happens, there is an attempt to turn it into this smoking gun that finally proves Israel is out for genocide.

I think this post is rather symptomatic.

I would suggest you're emotionally invested in a specific party in this situation and are internalizing the comments in an unfounded way.

For many of us who have no emotional investment in either party, but rather an emotional investment in human well-being regardless of race or religion, we're interested in a resolution. Our means of trying to achieve that resolution is to rationally outline the legitimate grievances that both parties have in order to see where there can be compromises and concessions.

I can enumerate many grievances that the Israelis have. They shouldn't have to suffer rockets or suicide bombings. They shouldn't have to be threatened by violence from foreign political parties. They shouldn't have to worry about kidnappings and murders. Those are unequivocal truths. No ifs, ands or buts.

Conversely, I would love to read your or Nage Waza's list of legitimate grievances that the Palestinians have.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

^^^^

My issue with all this is that Israel is invading Gaza and many civilians are dieing. There are plenty of arguments to make that Israel is unjust or that Israel is responding way to heavy handedly.

Why does there need to be this constant attempt to prove that Israel is the most evil country in the world. Every time something bad happens, there is an attempt to turn it into this smoking gun that finally proves Israel is out for genocide.

This is a bit of a straw man, as I don't think that sentiment has been the common (if it's even existed at all, though there could be an outlier or two). Israel has done evil things, but who here paints them as the most evil?

Perhaps I could alter your question and ask it from the other side:

Why does there need to be this constant attempt to demonise any thoughts critical of Israel, or anyone who presents articles highlighting some of the awful things Israel has done?

When talking about the dispute, is it not logical to talk about both sides? The evils of Hamas have been brought up repeatedly, they need to be seen, but is one not allowed to speak of the evils of Israel? There is no morally untouchable side on this dispute, so why does bringing up one bother you, but not the other?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I think this post is rather symptomatic.

I would suggest you're emotionally invested in a specific party in this situation and are internalizing the comments in an unfounded way.

For many of us who have no emotional investment in either party, but rather an emotional investment in human well-being regardless of race or religion, we're interested in a resolution. Our means of trying to achieve that resolution is to rationally outline the legitimate grievances that both parties have in order to see where there can be compromises and concessions.

I can enumerate many grievances that the Israelis have. They shouldn't have to suffer rockets or suicide bombings. They shouldn't have to be threatened by violence from foreign political parties. They shouldn't have to worry about kidnappings and murders. Those are unequivocal truths. No ifs, ands or buts.

Conversely, I would love to read your or Nage Waza's list of legitimate grievances that the Palestinians have.

I don't think I'm internalizing anything. Posters here have actually accused Israel of purposely targeting civilians and genocide. Am I imagining this?

Meanwhile, the truth of the situation is that Israel is actually setting up field hospitals to treat Gazans, sending in truckloads of shipments, and setting up humanitarian truces.

I think the issue is that for whatever reason college students and internet warriors have made it a habit of demonizing Israel and are not used to people pointing out the truth of the situation.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think the issue is that for whatever reason college students and internet warriors have made it a habit of demonizing Israel and are not used to people pointing out the truth of the situation.

What kind of conversation are you hoping to have if you take an open, honest, and even-keeled answer to your question, and respond to it with a dismissive brand of antagonism?

[Zevo]

No surprise. Hamas rejects ceasefire extension.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-co...sion-1.2718936

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by blankall

I don't think I'm internalizing anything. Posters here have actually accused Israel of purposely targeting civilians and genocide. Am I imagining this?

Meanwhile, the truth of the situation is that Israel is actually setting up field hospitals to treat Gazans, sending in truckloads of shipments, and setting up humanitarian truces.

I think the issue is that for whatever reason college students and internet warriors have made it a habit of demonizing Israel and are not used to people pointing out the truth of the situation.

The times I only really despair for humanity is when someone is unwilling to even entertain that someone else may have a just grievance.

You could have picked any other response to that question, but instead responded with more empty rhetoric defending Israeli conduct when it wasn't even being challenged.

It's sad, more than anything else. It really is.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The times I only really despair for humanity is when someone is unwilling to even entertain that someone else may have a just grievance.

So you're saying that people who feel Israel is attempting to commit genocide in regards to the Palestinians is a legitimate grievance that is occurring, or have I come into this and totally mis-interpreted this conversation chain?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The times I only really despair for humanity is when someone is unwilling to even entertain that someone else may have a just grievance.

You could have picked any other response to that question, but instead responded with more empty rhetoric defending Israeli conduct when it wasn't even being challenged.

It's sad, more than anything else. It really is.

And you reply the EXACT same way??

You don't want to entertain that his side may actually have a grievance so you respond this way?

Maybe you didn't, but posters were calling what Israel is doing as genocide and specifically targeting civilians.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

And you reply the EXACT same way??

You don't want to entertain that his side may actually have a grievance so you respond this way?

Maybe you didn't, but posters were calling what Israel is doing as genocide and specifically targeting civilians.

I think you and blaster have misread the comment chain.

Generally those critical or Israeli occupation policy have to fall all over themselves to legitimize the grievances of Israel, as ffphd did in his post.

The opposite is scarcely the case, and when supplied with an opportunity to legitimize any grievance of the Palestinian cause, blankall felt attacked and needed to defend the state by telling us how good things were because they set up field hospitals for the civilians they've killed and injured.

Undercover brother pointed it out already, grievances of Israeli policy can't be legitimized unless you provide euqual airtime to all the good they do (which is a load of patronizing hooey).

The critics of Israeli policy in this thread routinely acknowledge the issues Israel has with Palestinian resistance/independence movement, but the supporters of Israel are generally as seen in blqnkalls post, unable to legitimize anything regarding the state of the occupied territories.

It is an absurdity that underlies the morally and mentally tenuous justification for this continued occupation.

Can't let anything slip through the cracks, gotta be a stone wall, can't show any weakness. Can't entertain the idea that thinks are not resolutely and resoundingly just; that the Palestinian people brought this upon themselves and Israel is an unfortunate bystander in all of this, beyond reproach, having never made a miss step.

It is really, really sad to see the lengths people will go to absolve abhorrent behaviour.

[Flash Walken]

It should also be noted how quickly some strawmen statements have been internalized in this conversation.

As far as I can tell the only posters using the term genocide in this thread are stay golden and blqnkqll, who use it as a straw man and politicized word as a justification. I haven't seen any poster accuse Israel of anything close to genocide, only defenders lamenting how vile it is that non-existent posters would dare accuse Israel of such a thing.

It is a huge, heaping load of bull.

Repeat it enough times though and suddenly there isn't just one, but several posters accusing Israel of genocide.

Disingenuous, dishonest, absurd.

[Zulu29]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...raels-critics/

Interesting take on Israel's self defence, basically it's not a case where two wrongs don't make a right where Hamas hits then Israel hits back, it's Hamas never stops hitting.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07...?__federated=1

And an article about the ceasefire that never was being broken.

Something has gotta give in that area of the world. I don't know what the answer is but it sure as hell isn't this. Sad waste of life on both sides.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It should also be noted how quickly some strawmen statements have been internalized in this conversation.

As far as I can tell the only posters using the term genocide in this thread are stay golden and blqnkqll, who use it as a straw man and politicized word as a justification. I haven't seen any poster accuse Israel of anything close to genocide, only defenders lamenting how vile it is that non-existent posters would dare accuse Israel of such a thing.

It is a huge, heaping load of bull.

Repeat it enough times though and suddenly there isn't just one, but several posters accusing Israel of genocide.

Disingenuous, dishonest, absurd.

Just like the posters who unequivocally say Israel purposely targets civilians but refuse to mention how Hamas puts those same civilians in harms way. Yet the civilian casualties are all Israels fault.

Disingenuous, dishonest, and absurd indeed.

[TorqueDog]

Thought this was an interesting point of view: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/w...iticize-israel

[Chill Cosby]

I think a lot of problems would be solved and circular arguments avoided if people from both sides stopped generalising, and addressed issues they have with certain statements to the posters that actually made those statements, instead of the "some people" and "this side" comments that are being used.

This is also unlikely to be at all beneficial to anyone who is emotionally invested in this situation. Coming in with a heavy bias just makes things difficult, and feelings get hurt.

[Zevo]

What Israel is up against this time and one of the main reason they are in Gaza at the moment.

Hamas had apparently been preparing a murderous assault on Israeli civilian targets for the coming Jewish New Year Holiday, Rosh Hashanah, which begins on September 24, according anonymous sources in the Israeli security services, as reported today by the Israeli daily Maariv

The Hamas plan consisted of what was to be a surprise attack in which 200 fighters would be dispatched through each of dozens of tunnels dug by Hamas under the border from Gaza to Israel, and seize kibbutzim and other communities while killing and kidnapping Israeli civilians.

http://t.co/EcxePe7FEh