Like anybody else, I can't really know what Israels stance is, I was just replying to an article posted.
Thanks. But rereading it, Hamas dressing up as civilians is not quite the same as using human shields. It's a deception tactic but it won't really result in civilian casualties until the militants reveal themselves, at which point I'd hope they can be singularly taken out without civilian deaths. Hiding munitions in civilian areas is closer to using human shields than trying to blend in as civilians.
__________________
"Think I'm gonna be the scapegoat for the whole damn machine? Sheeee......."
Speaking of human shields, guess which army protested against a ban on Human shields?
"The Israeli Defence Ministry will appeal against a supreme court ruling banning the use of Palestinian human shields in raids, officials said.
Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz is prepared to make a personal appearance in court to defend the practice, ministry officials added.
Human rights groups have frequently condemned the use of human shields.
The Israeli military believes that the use of Palestinian civilians can often defuse a tense situation"
So if Hamas positions itself near and around civilian population, why would Israel continue to attack these outposts knowing damn well they are going to slaughter dozens of innocent people. Its almost worse than just claiming ingorance and "collateral damage".
I think the answer is, they don't care. I beleive they are trying to teach the Palestinian population in Gaza a lesson through terror and fear, and that inlcudes Hamas, and regular citizens. Its intimidation tactics. Like the thread title suggests, Israel wants to show everyone it doesn't screw around. This is their territory and the Palestinians better keep in line or pay the consequences.
Like I said in an earlier post, this is so far beyond "self defence" its ridiculous.
I added on to the post above but like I said, nobody knows Israels intentions but i have a hard time believing they purposely target civilians. For the record, I do think they are heavy handed, I just don't think they are the only ones to blame. And no I'm not blaming the Palestinians.
I readily admit I do have a bias as I have family living in Israel. I feel for the Palestinians, I really do, but if Hamas could they would kill my daughter and grandkids without blinking. I understand Israels want to protect itself even if i don't approve of all the methods.
Thanks. But rereading it, Hamas dressing up as civilians is not quite the same as using human shields. It's a deception tactic but it won't really result in civilian casualties until the militants reveal themselves, at which point I'd hope they can be singularly taken out without civilian deaths. Hiding munitions in civilian areas is closer to using human shields than trying to blend in as civilians.
I agree but it does muddy the water a bit and it's hard to fight an enemy who hides amongst (and dresses like) women and children.
Israel’s tragedy is that the only democracy in the Middle East has fallen prey to a succession of Right-wing governments, which derive much of their electoral strength from Russian emigres and extremist religious parties.
Quote:
Part of the explanation, they said, was that since the assassination of prime minister Yitzhak Rabin by a Jewish fanatic back in 1995, no Jerusalem government has pursued a serious political strategy for peace.
The security forces have simply been left to impose varying degrees of repression, while Jewish settlers grab ever-larger areas of the West Bank and Jerusalem. In a remarkable moment of frankness, one former Shin Bet chief said: ‘Occupation has made us a cruel people.’
Quote:
Initially, Israel’s government had no policies for the Occupation, because it had never dreamed of achieving such conquests. Those in charge simply followed impulses.
The general in charge of former Jordanian east Jerusalem, for instance, ordered bulldozers to demolish 137 Arab homes, to clear a plaza in front of that sacred Jewish place, the Wailing Wall.
Israel’s justice minister told Teddy Kollek, mayor of West Jerusalem: ‘I don’t know what the legal status is. Do it quickly, and may the God of Israel be with you.’ Some elderly Arabs refused to leave their homes, and were crushed in the debris.
In those days I, as a passionate admirer of Israel, would have said: the Arabs caused this war. They gambled, and lost. Israel is entitled now to secure its future. Since the Arab nations refuse peace on any borders, why should not Israel’s soldiers set these where they have conquered?
Quote:
I still felt the same in 1973, during the Yom Kippur War when Israel reeled before a devastating Egyptian and Syrian surprise attack. From amid the Israelis’ camp fires, as a correspondent I wrote expressing my admiration for the nation, for what it had created from a near-wasteland: ‘They are a very great people, who have come closer to destruction than blind Europe seems willing to recognise.’ The veteran journalist James Cameron, who had known Israel since its inception, wrote me a generous note after that piece was published, saying: ‘It is quite impossible to work in combat with the Israeli army without this response, if you have any sense of history and drama.’
But then he added reflectively: ‘I have sometimes wondered over the past few years whether this irresistible military mesmerism hasn’t clouded for us some of the political falsities.’
Some 40 years on, I have become sure that Jimmy Cameron was right. Too many of us allowed ourselves to become blinded by military success to the huge injustice done to the Palestinians.
Quote:
That the current crisis is giving rise to some ugly displays of anti-semitism in parts of Europe is utterly contemptible.
But it is also contemptible that some apologists hurl charges of anti-semitism at all Israel’s critics — many of whom are admirers of so much that this great nation has achieved.
Most of us merely attack Israeli excesses as we do those of Russia, Burma, China, Syria, the U.S. or any other government that deploys disproportionate violence against those at its mercy.
Israel’s people deserve a less unworthy leader than Benjamin Netanyahu, and a higher vision than that of reducing Gaza to rubble. This can breed only a new generation of alienated, embittered Palestinian radicals, who will sustain their desperate struggle through decades to come.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Flames Fan, Ph.D. For This Useful Post:
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan ridiculed Israel’s ground invasion of Gaza, accusing the Israeli government of “barbarism that surpasses Hitler.”
Speaking at a political re-election rally in the Turkish city of Ordu, Turkey’s prime minister said that Israel has “surpassed what Hitler did to them” and declared the country a “terrorist state.”
“[Israelis] have no conscience, no honor, no pride. Those who condemn Hitler day and night have surpassed Hitler in barbarism,” said Erdoğan. He accused Israel of rejecting ceasefires that Hamas has proposed and “spitting death, spitting blood.”
The kind of proof your asking for won't exist publicly, because the Palestinians do not allow for an open press.
So are you claiming to be an insider with knowledge we know nothing about? Or are you just guessing what happened? Seems like the latter to me, and not surprising since you've made up a few fairy tales in this thread and not backed it up.
Not sure if posted yet, but I had really only heard of the Palestinian side before this video. The media makes out the Israeli side to be so barbaric, yet I'm starting to think it's pure bias. With Hamas establishing military bases in elementary schools, it's no wonder there are children dying; it's not like the Israeli's can just sit back and let themselves get bombed without retaliation.
Not sure if posted yet, but I had really only heard of the Palestinian side before this video. The media makes out the Israeli side to be so barbaric, yet I'm starting to think it's pure bias. With Hamas establishing military bases in elementary schools, it's no wonder there are children dying; it's not like the Israeli's can just sit back and let themselves get bombed without retaliation.
Holy crap!
This clown pretty much summed up every cliche piece of Israeli propaganda in 5 minutes. I guess he gets full points for that.
Pretty much every one of his points has been discredited in this thread alone.
Thanks. But rereading it, Hamas dressing up as civilians is not quite the same as using human shields. It's a deception tactic but it won't really result in civilian casualties until the militants reveal themselves, at which point I'd hope they can be singularly taken out without civilian deaths. Hiding munitions in civilian areas is closer to using human shields than trying to blend in as civilians.
No it is using human shields.
The rules of war call for combatants to wear uniforms. The reason being they aren't confused with civilians. Hiding among the civilians without a uniform is using them as human shields.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to blankall For This Useful Post:
So are you claiming to be an insider with knowledge we know nothing about? Or are you just guessing what happened? Seems like the latter to me, and not surprising since you've made up a few fairy tales in this thread and not backed it up.
I'm not more an expert than anyone else in this thread. I'm just willing to look into all the evidence. When a Palestinian official is willing to risk his own life by speaking out about something, that's fairly telling to me.
You have one society where murderers are arrested and evidence is preserved and another where murderers are hidden and evidence is destroyed. You are now saying that Israel who has preserved their evidence and arrested their murderers is less moral than the state that has hidden their murderers. People don't just disappear into thin air. The two suspects are somewhere within the West Bank. People are hiding them.
The Following User Says Thank You to blankall For This Useful Post:
I'm not more an expert than anyone else in this thread. I'm just willing to look into all the evidence. When a Palestinian official is willing to risk his own life by speaking out about something, that's fairly telling to me.
How does someone who is speaking on anonymity risk his life?
Quote:
You have one society where murderers are arrested and evidence is preserved and another where murderers are hidden and evidence is destroyed. You are now saying that Israel who has preserved their evidence and arrested their murderers is less moral than the state that has hidden their murderers. People don't just disappear into thin air. The two suspects are somewhere within the West Bank. People are hiding them.
Lol, oh I am?? You really are a piece of work. Not only do you make up fantasies in your head about what happens in that part of the world, you also put words in other people's mouth.
Do you have any links that Hamas is hiding the suspects? Of course you don't. Maybe the Palestinians are hiding them, who knows, but Israel just arrested hundreds of Palestinians with zero proof after the incident....what a great democracy Israel is.
How does someone who is speaking on anonymity risk his life?
Lol, oh I am?? You really are a piece of work. Not only do you make up fantasies in your head about what happens in that part of the world, you also put words in other people's mouth.
Do you have any links that Hamas is hiding the suspects? Of course you don't. Maybe the Palestinians are hiding them, who knows, but Israel just arrested hundreds of Palestinians with zero proof after the incident....what a great democracy Israel is.
They certainly aren't giving them up...they've got a network devoted to hiding their own militants. It's not a huge place. Funny they haven't been found yet.
BBC's Jon Donnison says Israeli officials say kidnapping was NOT the work of Hamas. A lone cell responsible. Oh well, at least hundreds of people died.
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 9h
Mickey Rosenfeld said lone cells much harder to track. Said they would find whoever was now protecting the two suspects.
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 9h
Israeli police spokes Mickey Rosenfeld also said if kidnapping had been ordered by Hamas leadership, they'd have known about it in advance.
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 14h
Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government. 2/2
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 14h
Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership1/2
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to WCW Nitro For This Useful Post:
It's not propaganda. It's another viewpoint. It's not more propaganda than the Palestinian narrative.
Sure, there are some Palestinian narratives that are just as bad as this, however I haven't seen anything posted here that's equivalent to this. But, claiming the Arabs won't recognize Israel and only want its destructions, while in the same breath trying to delegitimize the Palestinian's existence is pretty rich and is highly offensive.
BBC's Jon Donnison says Israeli officials say kidnapping was NOT the work of Hamas. A lone cell responsible. Oh well, at least hundreds of people died.
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 9h
Mickey Rosenfeld said lone cells much harder to track. Said they would find whoever was now protecting the two suspects.
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 9h
Israeli police spokes Mickey Rosenfeld also said if kidnapping had been ordered by Hamas leadership, they'd have known about it in advance.
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 14h
Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government. 2/2
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 14h
Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership1/2
And this is why as I stated earlier, this should have always been a police matter.
