Harper is a neocon and neocons are the staunchest defenders of Israel. So Harper is indeed more pro-Israel than Obama or most American Presidents not named Bush.
Never understood why this is, Israel is a socialist state at its heart!
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
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I think it's crazy that Canada is this sabre-rattling neocon country these days. I certainly do not expect Canada to represent my admittedly pro-Palestinian views, but we used to be seen in the world as a peacekeeping bunch of fair-minded and rational people. No longer.
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First off, if you're going to claim most survivors just claimed it was confusing then post links. I will gladly read them.
Secondly, planes do travel fast and high but it was said by survivors in the earlier links I posted that they travelled over them several times. I don't believe for one second they missed them that many times and the first things they shot at were the machine gun tubs on board and the antennas. They saw enough to see there were people on the machine gun tubs but couldn't see their American flag? or that the Navy ship was not armed at all with anything other than machine guns?. One would think if they were attacking the enemy they'd at least know what kind of fire power they were facing.
I could have predicted several hundred posts ago that this would be brought up as it is used by pretty much all anti Israel propagandists - even though it means absolutely nothing today in regards to this conflict. There unfortunately will always be friendly fire incidents, including more recently the Tarnak incident and events involving Maj. Christopher Lunney.
Israel absolutely destroyed that ship on purpose. They aimed weapons, torpedos and bombs at it, killing and injuring many American soldiers. Israel did this completely on purpose, thinking it was not an American ship. There were lessons learned from this.
Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated over and over again in this thread, war sucks and accidents happen. The fact you drag this out shows more about where you get your 'facts; ' from than anything else you have posted.
The ongoing game theory behind the Israeli air strikes and ground invasion is, in effect, “The Netanyahu Peace Plan.” It is just far easier to attack Gaza—in the name of fighting Hamas—than it is to sign a peace agreement with moderates such as Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. And the latter has never been Netanyahu’s goal. Quite the contrary: By bombarding Gaza, Netanyahu can dismiss all Palestinian claims to sovereignty and self-determination—in the name of security. In turn, a perverse and cyclical game has emerged in which Israeli occupation and “security campaigns” serve only to engender further retaliatory violence and at the same time further embolden Palestinian extremists.
The moderate Palestinian leadership had already accepted all the conditions Netanyahu demanded. They renounced violence, recognized the state of Israel, and embraced a demilitarized Palestinian state. But in response, the Israeli government made no concessions, the result of which was to effectively destroy the moderate leadership within Palestinian society. Conversely, when Israel negotiated with Hamas and released more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for one Israeli soldier, Israel sent the perverse message that it only negotiates with those who engage in violence, while moderates such as Abbas, who attempt to negotiate in good faith, are humiliated and ignored. The recently reported “secret negotiations” between Hamas and Israel are in keeping with this policy.
The PA (or as they're now known as the State of Palestine) isn't Hamas. Remember that.
That's my point. Abbas can agree to whatever he wants and renounce all the violence he wants, but if Hamas is still there lobbing rockets over the border....
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That's my point. Abbas can agree to whatever he wants and renounce all the violence he wants, but if Hamas is still there lobbing rockets over the border....
Sure and I get that.
But then you have to look at why Hamas is lobbing rockets in the first place, the occupation and illegal settlement building. Say Hamas decides tomorrow to put down their weapons like the PLO did in 1993, recognize Israel and negotiate peace. If the settlement building continues, someone else (probably more extremist than Hamas) will replace them as "The Defenders of Free Palestine" and spiral this thing out of control once again.
Listen it's a never ending circle. I get that both sides only see their side as being correct and I'm just as guilty as anyone on the other side. But the fact of the matter is, if Israel were to enable the side that wants peace, the Palestinian people would have no excuse to support the violence. As it stands right now, their only choices are live under occupation and risk losing your home or fight and die for the cause.
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But then you have to look at why Hamas is lobbing rockets in the first place, the occupation and illegal settlement building. Say Hamas decides tomorrow to put down their weapons like the PLO did in 1993, recognize Israel and negotiate peace. If the settlement building continues, someone else (probably more extremist than Hamas) will replace them as "The Defenders of Free Palestine" and spiral this thing out of control once again.
Listen it's a never ending circle. I get that both sides only see their side as being correct and I'm just as guilty as anyone on the other side. But the fact of the matter is, if Israel were to enable the side that wants peace, the Palestinian people would have no excuse to support the violence. As it stands right now, their only choices are live under occupation and risk losing your home or fight and die for the cause.
I agree with every point you have. My first post was on huge disagreement with constant crap seeping out from both sides. I heard Netanyahu on the radio yesterday say they are prepared to agree to the cease fire, but Hamas won't stop fighting and will not compromise.
Both sides have to call out the leadership for this blatant lying going on. At no point was an agreement with Abbas going to stop the rockets, so why blame Israel for not honouring it, when the rockets were still coming. And vice versa, why expect Hamas to lay down their weapons while your blowing up their children?
It's asinine
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But then you have to look at why Hamas is lobbing rockets in the first place, the occupation and illegal settlement building. Say Hamas decides tomorrow to put down their weapons like the PLO did in 1993, recognize Israel and negotiate peace. If the settlement building continues, someone else (probably more extremist than Hamas) will replace them as "The Defenders of Free Palestine" and spiral this thing out of control once again.
Listen it's a never ending circle. I get that both sides only see their side as being correct and I'm just as guilty as anyone on the other side. But the fact of the matter is, if Israel were to enable the side that wants peace, the Palestinian people would have no excuse to support the violence. As it stands right now, their only choices are live under occupation and risk losing your home or fight and die for the cause.
Do you actually think that's why Hamas is lobbing rockets? That may be the PAs greatest concern, but Hamas wants nothing more than to create terror in Israel. Do you think that if Israel were to stop building and tore down illegal settlements, granted Palestine statehood and tore down the wall that mass bombings of markets, cafes and buses wouldn't ensue?
If the Palestinians ever want peace they have to stop backing and protecting Hamas.
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And this all brings me back to the very first point I made in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Q_
Yeah because killing hundreds of civilians is the way to deal with the death of 3.
Remember, this all started because of the murder of 3 Israeli teens.
The death toll right now is over 600 on the Palestinian side, but it's also now at 30 on the Israeli side. Let's forget about the Arab death toll for a minute. Was this all worth it? Does the death of 30 somehow make up for the death of 3? Is this case any closer to getting resolved?
What should have happened is a full police investigation. Evidence should have been presented to the Palestinian security forces and been told to apprehend the guilty party. Failure to do so would have resulted in a small scale clandestine invasion in which the perpetrators are either killed or captured.
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And this all brings me back to the very first point I made in this thread.
Remember, this all started because of the murder of 3 Israeli teens.
The death toll right now is over 600 on the Palestinian side, but it's also now at 30 on the Israeli side. Let's forget about the Arab death toll for a minute. Was this all worth it? Does the death of 30 somehow make up for the death of 3? Is this case any closer to getting resolved?
What should have happened is a full police investigation. Evidence should have been presented to the Palestinian security forces and been told to apprehend the guilty party. Failure to do so would have resulted in a small scale clandestine invasion in which the perpetrators are either killed or captured.
The Palestinian security forces should have lead the charge and investigation. Instead the head of Hamas praised the action of those the committed the murders.
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Do you actually think that's why Hamas is lobbing rockets? That may be the PAs greatest concern, but Hamas wants nothing more than to create terror in Israel. Do you think that if Israel were to stop building and tore down illegal settlements, granted Palestine statehood and tore down the wall that mass bombings of markets, cafes and buses wouldn't ensue?
If the Palestinians ever want peace they have to stop backing and protecting Hamas.
I'm not sure what Hamas wants at the end of the day. They've made indications that they would accept a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders and the acceptance of Israel's existence was negotiable.
Both sides have sworn at one point or another to wipe the other side off the map. You and I both know, however, that only one side has the military and technological capability to do so.
I'm not sure what Hamas wants at the end of the day. They've made indications that they would accept a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders and the acceptance of Israel's existence was negotiable.
Both sides have sworn at one point or another to wipe the other side off the map. You and I both know, however, that only one side has the military and technological capability to do so.
And the other has said they will spend every life they have trying to do the same. Capabilities here are irrelevant. There are no sides to cheer for here.
Hamas is a disgusting racist group whose leadership has recently and repeatedly commended the murders of people based completely on race. They have also repeatedly put the destruction of a people as their main goal.
The israeli government has also gladly traded innocent children's lives for a continued conflict that serves their purpose. They continue to say one thing and do another with complete disregard to life. The only reason they've killed more innocent people than Hamas is due to capabilities. That's the only thing separating them.
The only solution is one neither side wants. Foreign solutions and peacekeeping. Hamas does not want to lay down weapons and Israel does not want it's sovereignty lost. I say tough titties, get the Arab League and NATO to work together here.
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