Black boxes are being handed over by "pro-Russian rebels" to the Malaysian authorities. Takes some serious equipment to properly decode the data on the flight data recorder anyway, the NTSB has the best equipment. The cockpit voice recorder is less difficult.
Among other things, they can probably now find out if the flight crew had visual contact with the missile before it hit them (or exploded in their proximity, or whatever)
Tampering is possible, but it's tough to actually manipulate anything without destroying it.
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I couldn't imagine the anger the Malaysians must have standing in the room with the people who allegedly shot down my plane. That'd be friggin awkward.
Black boxes are being handed over by "pro-Russian rebels" to the Malaysian authorities. Takes some serious equipment to properly decode the data on the flight data recorder anyway, the NTSB has the best equipment. The cockpit voice recorder is less difficult.
Among other things, they can probably now find out if the flight crew had visual contact with the missile before it hit them (or exploded in their proximity, or whatever)
Tampering is possible, but it's tough to actually manipulate anything without destroying it.
Surely the Russians have some technology to decode, you'd think tampering is only a small step further. What possible reason food they have to hide it first, and what changed their minds?
Surely the Russians have some technology to decode, you'd think tampering is only a small step further. What possible reason food they have to hide it first, and what changed their minds?
What data are the Russians going to change?
Most likely the flight data recorder will simply report every system is fine, then one second later, every system is broken. It's not going to be able to tell you who shot the missile (or that even there was a missile).
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Most likely the flight data recorder will simply report every system is fine, then one second later, every system is broken. It's not going to be able to tell you who shot the missile (or that even there was a missile).
Not sure. Altitude, voice recorders suddenly not working when they're talking about setting a male headed their way, etc
CNN just showed a list of some essential known facts:
-Satellites show SAM fired in that area
-Mid air explosion heat signatures consistent with a SAM hitting target where the plane went down
-No known Ukrainian BUK in that rebel territory or even close
-two weeks prior, satellites show 165 military vehicles come
across border from Russia. Many tarped vehicles could have been BUK systems.
-SAM training site identified literally right across border where Rebels are known to be trained
That's pretty damning
I remember CNN showing satellite images of Iraqs so called weapons of mass destruction being moved on trucks all over Iraq. Sorry I don't trust either side.
I remember CNN showing satellite images of Iraqs so called weapons of mass destruction being moved on trucks all over Iraq. Sorry I don't trust either side.
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I remember thousands of victims from those weapons, because the USA didn't find them doesn't mean they didn't exist.
My favourite was when CNN was "on location" in Saudia Arabia during the gulf war, had air raid sirens going, mass panic and confusion, scrambling to put on gas masks in front of a palm tree and desert scene...
...then they go to commercial, without the actors, err reporters knowledge, you get to check out the sweet new blue screen, studio, and watch those in the most trusted name in news have a good chuckle over the whole facade.
Not sure. Altitude, voice recorders suddenly not working when they're talking about setting a male headed their way, etc
I heard on one new report that the missile travels 4X faster than the plane itself and faster than the speed of sound.
It doesn't seem like that would have seen it coming and had any conversation about the missile before impact anyway.
I heard on one new report that the missile travels 4X faster than the plane itself and faster than the speed of sound.
It doesn't seem like that would have seen it coming and had any conversation about the missile before impact anyway.
Even at onset the speed of sound there would have been some seconds before impact. Maybe even a "what the hell is th..."
I remember CNN showing satellite images of Iraqs so called weapons of mass destruction being moved on trucks all over Iraq. Sorry I don't trust either side.
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CNN showed satellite images of where they were suspected of being (WMDs). At no point did anyone say they saw these SAMs moving, but there most certainly was a long military convoy, then all of a sudden Ukrainian military planes start magically blowing up in mid air. I'm not sure how you can be sceptical here
My favourite was when CNN was "on location" in Saudia Arabia during the gulf war, had air raid sirens going, mass panic and confusion, scrambling to put on gas masks in front of a palm tree and desert scene...
...then they go to commercial, without the actors, err reporters knowledge, you get to check out the sweet new blue screen, studio, and watch those in the most trusted name in news have a good chuckle over the whole facade.
Man, those were the days.
That's been 90% debunked.
Hard to say if the air raid was genuine (only because it's impossible to prove at this point), but they were outside a hotel in Saudi Arabia, exactly where they said they were.
My favourite was when CNN was "on location" in Saudia Arabia during the gulf war, had air raid sirens going, mass panic and confusion, scrambling to put on gas masks in front of a palm tree and desert scene...
...then they go to commercial, without the actors, err reporters knowledge, you get to check out the sweet new blue screen, studio, and watch those in the most trusted name in news have a good chuckle over the whole facade.
Man, those were the days.
Skip to 6:45 for the good part (and by good part I mean the horribly faked part).
Not much has changed since those days, unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by Former s-200 SAM operator from the USSR
Somebody screwed up, this is common. We screwed up before in the 80s, Ukrainians screwed up in the early 2000 - so I would not put it beyond them to hit the plane thinking it was Russian, since their military seems to be very disorganized now. Rebels obviously could do it, not intentionally though as they do not stand to benefit. The maximum extent of Russian involvment on this could be Russia highlighting the plane on the radar for the rebels (since their Buk only had the launcher with primitive radar, it was not a full system which is 3 vehicles - commad, radar and launcher), which would be a major screw up on their part.
Honestly right now noone knows what really happened there and noone ever will.
I also don't like the fact that its seems like the guilty party has been "appointed" before the investigators ever got to the crash site, and that Obama and Poroshenko keep rambling on about "evidence" that they possess without showing any. So far the only pictures and radar information released come from Russia - and I find it odd that it gets dismissed as "Russia trying to cover up" and its not bigger news.
You see this type of evidence is very, very hard to falsify. What was on Russian radars, was on NATO radars. If they say they saw a Su-25 next to the airplane, and two hours later NATO releases their radar info and there is no Su-25 - they are in deep ####. They also released radar information and sattelite pictures of Ukrainian Buks deployed in the area - if NATO comes up with the same pictures on same day but this stuff is not there, Russia is again in deep ####. But no, Russia actually asked US to release their pictures and radar data, stating that they never detected a launch by either of the parties - only Ukrainian SAM tracking the plane, and that they know that US spy sattelite was directly over the area when this happened. This means Russia is 100% confident in their information.
Again, this is the first solid evidence I see - a cell phone video of a Buk SAM driving somewhere as "evidence" of it being taken across the border back to Russia is ridiculous - it could belong to anyone and be driven anywhere. Phone conversation intercepted does not conclude anything, these things can be doctored by anyone with a laptop, plus its not the same people talking - so it could easily be rebels talking about shooting down a Su-25 and looking for pilots in first half and the second half could be a cut from a different group at a different time finding the rubble of MH17. Again, I am not saying that it has been or that's what happened - but Ukraine has a Secret Service of its own, and if I was running it and some idiots in my military shot down that plane, that's what I would do - come up with a bunch of evidence blaming the other side, no matter how weak, knowing full well that since I am seen as a "the good guy" already noone will look into it too much, and the US will probably back me up and keep their mouth shut even if they know I did it.
United States and NATO just need to release their radar information and sattelite pictures to international investigators, that's it. Russia has just done so.
Of course, you can see that I am biased. But I am used to treating everything with a grain of salt. Russia (USSR) covered up Korean Airlines tragedy, so they cannot be trusted. Ukraine shot down Israeli Boeing before and denied involvement until Israel presented them pieces of plane with shrapnel holes, parts of the missile and radar data - so they cannot be trusted. I do not even speak of separatists. US and NATO cannot be trusted - they have their interests at stake in the region, plus after Iraq and the "evidence" there, with Collin Powel shaking a bottle with salt and calling it evidence of chemicale weapons, any evidence produced by US cannot be taken seriously.
That is why I think we will never trully know what happened. The West will think Russia did, and Russia will think Ukraine did it, and everyone will be right and everyone will be wrong.
EDIT: one point: Air to air missile hit is very easy to tell from a SAM hit, you do not need any expertise. Here is what airplane pieces sort of look like after S-200 hit them (I saw a bunch of practice targets and what happened to them): http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0...00/pattern.JPG
I have not seen air-to-air damage and don't really know how they work, but I venture to say its much smaller and less holes, relying more on the explosive part. So we will know that part soon enough.
EDIT 2: Since this is getting a bit more attention, this is how I think investigation should be handled. Rather than immidiately state "We know the separatists are guilty, and we will not investigate the possibility of Ukrainian military being at fault" (which is what US state department did, hours after the plane crashed), all version should be taken into account, and they all should be checked and ruled out - even the implausible conspiracy ones. This is the only way to prevent conspiracy theories going on and on about it for the next 50 years. Also, the investigation should be done jointly by ISCA, Russia, Ukraine, Malaysia, Netherlands, NATO and the US. Based on what could possibly happen to the plane, the following versions need to be checked - in no particular order of importance. Again, I do not care if they sound crazy or unlikely:
1) Terrorist act. Mohammad al Jihad decided to blow himself up inside the plane while flying over Eastern Ukraine.
2) Malfunction/incident. Bird flew into engine, lighting bolt. Who knows.
3) NATO missile cruiser from the Black Sea (anything currently there that has the range?)
4) Separatist's Buk took it down.
5) Russian Black Sea fleet, in particular its flagship, Moskva - it can hit airplanes 200-250 km away. Was it in range?
6) Ukrainian Buk took it down.
7) Ukrainian S-300 took it down from far away.
8) Russian S-300 or S-400 took it down from around Rostov-on-Don region.
9) Ukrainian Air to Air missile from a military jet.
10) Russian Air to Air missile from a mlitary jet.
That's about all I can think of. If you do not check them all you will have conspiracy nuts all over this for years. Again, I do not believe most of these are even remotely likely, but if it could possibly happen it must be investigated, no matter how unlikely or studpid it sounds.
EDIT 3: Thanks for the gold! In a disappointing update, US State Dept. released a statement, basically saying that since Russia is known to spread misinformation and propaganda, and US is known to be honest, there is no need for US to respond to Russian request and reveal their evidence. It is enough for the world to know that US has the evidence that points at the separatists and Russians, and have trust in US intelligence agencies since they don't lie about things like this.
I cannot believe the person saying it didn't burst out laughing in the middle. They can't seriously believe this ####.
Ugh, people posting that video and making broad remarks on the state of media always makes me cringe.
Your debunking video doesn't actually debunk the faked news part of the broadcast, it just targets a straw-man about whether or not they were actually in Saudi Arabia. Who cares? That's not a claim I am making, nor is that the part of the video I asked people to watch.
Again, go to 6:45 and watch what happens. They are clearly pretending to be under a missile or gas attack. Its obvious in its awkwardness.
Last edited by FunkMasterFlame; 07-21-2014 at 08:20 PM.
