Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Arya Stark]

We were talking about a specific incident Lanny9.

[lanny9]

Again, both sides are to blame here, not on the Israeli train by any means.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

We were talking about a specific incident Lanny9.

Then you have lost me, this is very standard practice by the sounds of it, I have heard it stated on CNN among other news sources that have read in the past.

"If a house is going to be bombed, a call is placed to it announcing this fact, and explicitly warning civilians to get out"

[Azure]

It is standard practice. They've been doing that every conflict.

[afc wimbledon]

The reality is there are no targets in Gaza that arnt civilian as well as Hamas, there is no way to separate the two, it is a tiny area that is one of the most populated in the world.

I'm no fan of Israel but I cannot see any country not responding when they are subject to rocket attacks. No rockets are being fired without Hamas's permission from their territory, Hamas knows full well the rockets far doing little to the Israelis other than piss them off and yet they sanction thousands of them being fired, they know Israel will respond and their people will die and yet they do it anyway, you can only conclude they want the deaths for there PR value.

[Canuck-Hater]

A New York times death toll day by day:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...lict.html?_r=1

[Mike F]

My take:

I can't believe anyone outside Hamas would claim Israel actually targets civilians. With the military might they have, and the trapped environment that is Gaza, even the most incompetent amateur could wipe out scores of civilians. I'll even accept they're taking pains to avoid civilians.

The problem is that, despite their efforts, they are killing scores of innocents, including children. If you just count the children killed, and ignore the adult civilians, this week of Israeli strikes has killed more than total Israelis killed by Hamas rockets in period of 2002-2014 (if you believe Wikipedia). And with each death, new terrorists are made.

So Israel is killing scores of innocents and creating new terrorists to somewhat dampen the ability of Hamas to harass but do relatively little meaningful damage. That's an awfully poor calculation, IMO, regardless of who you want to anoint the "Holder of the Moral High Ground".

The only thing Israel really gains is political points domestically. The gov't gets to show it's citizens that it's tough on Hamas. It's basically the equivalent of the Tough on Crime stances you see here, and particularly in the US, with politicians wanting to score political points with tougher laws, minimum sentencing provisions, three-strikes provisions, etc., that keep prisons overflowing in order to "protect our streets". The problem is that all you do is put a tonne of people into an environment where, when the eventually come out, they are more hardened and lack integration skills.

You don't have to be a lover of criminals to see the problems with current imprisonment focused policies, and you don't have to be an anti-semite see the problem with Israel's heavy military bombardment policy as ultimately counterproductive.

[smoothpops]

How come the Israeli military can judge 13 people to be militants that are coming to attack them, but not be able to tell that it's 4 year old's playing on a beach?
I'm pretty neutral in this conflict, (both sides are reprehensible in their own special ways), but to the poster that thinks that he can get out of his apartment building in less the 57 seconds, your out of your mind. Also, the problem Palestinians face, is after they leave their apartments, there's nowhere for them to go except for one place; into the sea. Jordan doesn't accept them, border at Egypt is closed, and they're not allowed to import the materials to build bomb shelters, so where would they go even if they could get out in time.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Exactly right. The only thing that scares israel is a moderate Palestinian leadership that will force the int'l community to put pressure on Israel. The puny rockets being fired are the best thing that can happen for israel, provide pretext/excuse/talking point.

Let's say you're right. In that case, the best thing for Palestinians to do is to stop the rockets.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Israel does purposely target buildings where they know civilians are residing. So to me they do purposely kill civilians.

What do you want them to do? If it's being used for military purposes, it's a military target. You can't just write your opponent a blank cheque to fire at your from "civilian" sites.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Hamas hasn't been around forever and there has never been steady peace. There will not be peace as long as Israel treats the Palestinians like they do and denies them their own state.

Yeah, before Hamas there was suicide bombings. Hence the wall. If Isreal gave Palestine statehood, they'd be at war with the new state as soon as the first rockets launched - it's not a solution.

[Flash Walken]

Hamas is only a military if they are a sovereign state. Israel is an occupying force, therefore Hamas is a resistance movement.

Like the ira in Ireland and the mk in south Africa, once there is political representation the need for armed resistance dwindles to nothing.

This has played itself out before.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Hamas is only a military if they are a sovereign state. Israel is an occupying force, therefore Hamas is a resistance movement.

Like the ira in Ireland and the mk in south Africa, once there is political representation the need for armed resistance dwindles to nothing.

This has played itself out before.

Or the Irgun in Brittish Mandated Palestine prior to 1948.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Hamas fires those weak rockets to make themselves feel good by being "tough". I don't believe for a second that their intention is to provoke Israel into bombing Gaza, their own families live there and are sometimes the target for retaliation.

Weak rockets?

The only rockets that I would classify as weak are the Qassam 1 and 2 series of Rockets which carry a half kg to a 5 kg high explosive warhead that they pack with fragments for maximum casualties.

The Quassam 3 rocket carries a 15 kg high explosive warhead which would bring down a fairly good sized house.

Hammas has also bought in the Grad rocket with a 18 kg high explosive warhead and a range of 20 kms and is fired from a MLRS type of system which can fire a dozen rockets at a high tempo.

They have the WS-1 a modern artillery rocket made in China with a 45 km range and a 22 kg warhead again high explosive and packed with basically ball bearings.

in the last two years Hamas has built the Fadjr-5 rocket which is a 75 km range missile with a 90 kg high explosive warhead which can bring down buildings.

And this year they started bringing in M302 missiles which only exist in Syria and China's inventory, these are long range missiles with a 150km range and a 150 kg war head.

I mean I know you have to make your case but Hamas isn't firing party poppers here, or their rickity home made rockets, these are actual battlefield anti personal rockets and the new ones have heavy warheads and have good long and medium range capabilities.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Hamas is only a military if they are a sovereign state. Israel is an occupying force, therefore Hamas is a resistance movement.

Like the ira in Ireland and the mk in south Africa, once there is political representation the need for armed resistance dwindles to nothing.

This has played itself out before.

And how far will Hamas go before saying all "occupied" territories are recovered and they are now peaceful? 1967 lines, occupied gaza, or pre 1948? Make no mistake Hamas's only goal is to destroy Israel. And you want Israel to negotiate with these guys?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

And how far will Hamas go before saying all "occupied" territories are recovered and they are now peaceful? 1967 lines, occupied gaza, or pre 1948? Make no mistake Hamas's only goal is to destroy Israel. And you want Israel to negotiate with these guys?

Not to beat the same drum again, but there are political parties in Israel (the Industry Minister's own Jewish Home Party) that want to annex all of the West Bank to Israel. What they would do to the Palestinians in that event is unclear, but you can draw your own conclusions. Even Netanyahu has gone on record saying he has no interest in ending the occupation, halting or dismantling settlements.

At the end of the day, this is like any other negotiation. Both sides come to the table with their ideal, yet unrealistic scenario, but fully expecting the final resolution to be somewhere in the middle.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Not to beat the same drum again, but there are political parties in Israel (the Industry Minister's own Jewish Home Party) that want to annex all of the West Bank to Israel. What they would do to the Palestinians in that event is unclear, but you can draw your own conclusions. Even Netanyahu has gone on record saying he has no interest in ending the occupation, halting or dismantling settlements.

At the end of the day, this is like any other negotiation. Both sides come to the table with their ideal, yet unrealistic scenario, but fully expecting the final resolution to be somewhere in the middle.

The trouble though is both sides are mostly unwilling to compromise from their ideal (Hamas specifically)

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The trouble though is both sides are mostly unwilling to compromise from their ideal (Hamas specifically)

This is a bit old, but still potentially true.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Mas...-on-67-borders

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by _Q_

This is a bit old, but still potentially true.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Mas...-on-67-borders

He said he'd accept it, then decide if they fought further. Is hardly call that a real compromise

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

And how far will Hamas go before saying all "occupied" territories are recovered and they are now peaceful? 1967 lines, occupied gaza, or pre 1948? Make no mistake Hamas's only goal is to destroy Israel. And you want Israel to negotiate with these guys?

Ideally? Both sides put down their weapons and negotiate a Palestinian state in good faith. If that Palestinian state then decides to fight with Israel they will be quickly dispatched in a proper war.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

He said he'd accept it, then decide if they fought further. Is hardly call that a real compromise

No the article says:

Pushed about his party's refusal to recognize Israel, Mashaal said such a declaration could only be made once a Palestinian state has been created.

"After this state is established, it decides its standing toward Israel," the Hamas leader said.

That sounds like recognizing Israel is negotiable.

Unless there's something else in there that I didn't catch, it seems like Hamas wants to put down its weapons and negotiate.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Man, oh, man... As much as I appreciate and value your hockey posts, this one calls for a "Ken King's OMG" on your avatar.

Approximately one billion Arabs, pretty much the entire world Muslim population, hate everything about Israel and its mere existence. This includes Shii-tes and Sunnis that hate each other more than anything, except for their hate of Israel. And you've concluded that it's all about where the water is being drawn from??? Follow your logic a step further: assume that 100% of Israel's drinking water comes from desalination. Do you honestly believe that the conflict would be resolved?

Because of my place of birth and ancestry, I'm one of the people that you've thrown the tarp over. I really do think you owe the board an apology for the ignorance displayed in the bolded sentence.


----

Edit: I was curious about the number of us Israel-hating "arabs" in the world. I figured that all arabs speak arabic. There appear to be ~300 million arabic speakers in the world. A fun fact to keep in mind while you're flaunting your ignorance on a public message board.