Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

[MarchHare]

Even if the missile was fired by pro-Russia rebels, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Russian government had any part of this. Ukraine is also an operator of the BUK system, so the rebels could have captured the SAM used to down the airliner from Ukrainian forces.

Again, assuming that the 777 was indeed shot down by a SAM, there are four possibilities as to who launched it:

1. The Russian military
2. The Ukrainian military
3. Rebels using equipment supplied by the Russia military
4. Rebels using equipment captured from the Ukrainian military

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by edslunch

The only reasons to deliberately shoot down a civilian aircraft would be to provoke the west or frame the other side. Neither make sense though for conspiracy buffs it seems the Ukraine government was the first to pin it on revels and is the first to mention secret recordings about it....

Personally I'm not a conspiracy buff so I expect it was accidental / gross negligence. That's not to excuse whoever did it or who armed them though.

And if the west is framing the separatists, why did their leader brag about it until they realized it wasn't a military plane?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by lanny9

and yes NATO should be looking to get fully involved here. This is unacceptable in any form or matter, Russia has been playing this game for far too long and it is time for a leader of the western world to stand up! Where is Reagan when you need him?

Originally Posted by lanny9

My good god some of you guys are a riot! Again did I say start a war? Did I say nuke them, did I say send missiles into Russia. Stop putting words in my mouth! Just how old are you anyways?

I guess when you call for the full involvement of NATO.......

[Byrns]

I'm sure there are no shortage of Ukrainian army defectors with the seperatists. There were plenty in Crimea.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by lanny9

My good god some of you guys are a riot! Again did I say start a war? Did I say nuke them, did I say send missiles into Russia. Stop putting words in my mouth! Just how old are you anyways?

You said exactly that:

Originally Posted by lanny9

I do not have a hate for Obama,would love to sit down and have a beer with the guy, I just don't think he is a good leader.



Who said anything about Nukes? You can go after the rebels with missiles, you can hit with more sanctions, you can do what is needed to secure the Ukrainian?Russian border so that Russia cannot supply with heavy arms like tanks, surface to air missiles etc.

[Locke]

I dont know about you guys but I am sincerely looking forward to hearing the excuses.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by JMN

@lanny9 Yes, the chances that Russia is involved in one way or another is strong but the data needs to be collected. You can't go making accusations or implying things. Obama is being strategic about this. Needs the facts first before pointing any fingers.

Wanting Obama to say something about Russia is implying that they are heavily involved. What if the facts come back showing that they weren't? You know how bad that'd look on the USA?

What we know is very little, what the CIA etc know would be way more. They know full well where this equipment came from and who shot it and if it were not Russian soldiers themselves they at least trained them in this very high tech system.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont know about you guys but I am sincerely looking forward to hearing the excuses.

Umm ... excuses? I'm looking forward to hearing Putin recount his daring escape from a dastardly assassination attempt.

[Tron_fdc]

This looks like some loon terrorist got himself a shiny new toy, and decided to use it on the first thing that crossed his path. There is no benefit to the pro-Russian guys to shooting down a passenger airline (that I can see).

How do idiots like this get weapons that powerful?

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I don't really see how the recorders will yield much, would the crew even know they were being fired on?

My wife being a former Comm-Air pilot confirmed that on internation flights and now US domestic, there is a early warn system in place on these A/C. How early, I dont know but the pilots would have been alerted by an alarm.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'll answer this the best I can.

this isn't like a hand fired SAM, or some of the older simple point and shoot independently targeted Sam vehicles.

The Buk is an air defense vehicle, its built to be a central point in keeping the skies clear over an advancing military. It uses radar and optical and infrared systems and it takes a while to train someone to use it and use it effectively.

One of two things could have happened. The Russians had the Separatists into Russia to train them, or we have "Advisers" running the vehicle.

Its not like a video game, usually what happens is the radar picks up the plane in sight, and you try to identify the target, usually by signature or transponder. Then you use the optical system to passively track the target, you don't want to use your targeting system on a military plane because they pick up that lock on radar. Once you identify the target optically then you usually lock on and fire.

There's a small chance that this could have been a tragic mistake, but if they used the optical system, and if they looked at the targets signature profile and transponder they would have known what it was..

And you can't take some farmer separatist and put him into this vehicle its a pretty technology heavy platform.

Absolutely correct.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

This looks like some loon terrorist got himself a shiny new toy, and decided to use it on the first thing that crossed his path. There is no benefit to the pro-Russian guys to shooting down a passenger airline (that I can see).

How do idiots like this get weapons that powerful?

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I guess when you call for the full involvement of NATO.......

Again, putting words in my mouth, I have said in a previous post that NATO can go in and secure that border so that Russia is not supplying heavy arms, not training and supplying soldiers. NATO acts as a peacekeeper too you know.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

You said exactly that:

Well TECHNICALLY he didn't say send missiles into Russia. He said to send missiles after the Russian rebels, likely posted within the Ukraine

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by lanny9

What we know is very little, what the CIA etc know would be way more. They know full well where this equipment came from and who shot it and if it were not Russian soldiers themselves they at least trained them in this very high tech system.

How can you be so certain that it was not the Ukrainian military accidentally shooting down an airliner? They did exactly that back in 2001.

How can you be so certain that this particular BUK system wasn't Ukrainian-owned and manned by pro-Russia defectors from Ukrainian military now working with the rebels?

The answer to both questions is that you don't know and therefore it's impossible to blame this on Russia (either directly or indirectly) until we have more information.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by lanny9

Again, putting words in my mouth, I have said in a previous post that NATO can go in and secure that border so that Russia is not supplying heavy arms, not training and supplying soldiers. NATO acts as a peacekeeper too you know.

If one of the two (or three or how every many) factions don't want you there then you are not peacekeeping......

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

Putin may have been the target

It's amusing that the Kremlin thinks anyone would actually swallow such a lame argument. I knew Moscow would be spinning propaganda, but that's just lame.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

And if the west is framing the separatists, why did their leader brag about it until they realized it wasn't a military plane?

Hadn't heard about the brag until now. Clearly he was in on it

Like I said, I don't believe in conspiracies.

[JMN]

Originally Posted by lanny9

What we know is very little, what the CIA etc know would be way more. They know full well where this equipment came from and who shot it and if it were not Russian soldiers themselves they at least trained them in this very high tech system.

I don't disagree. But they still need to be strategic about this. It all happened recently so expect leaders to have a stronger stance as more information is leaked to the public. Just don't expect it now.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Igster

Hey lanny9...At least Obama didn't look stunned and continue to read to the children.

Really?

Because the two situations are comparable in so many ways.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by nik-

Umm ... excuses? I'm looking forward to hearing Putin recount his daring escape from a dastardly assassination attempt.

or how his mom should have been dead years before he was born?

I think we might want to brush up on those old nuclear emergency drills.