Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Itse

Sounds really interesting actually. I'll have to make arrangements, but I'm sure we could find a date somewhere. It might be hard to do much more than a weekend+ for me though, but if you insist I can try to arrange something longer.

Alright PM me and let me know we can work out the details. Yes, I know my point of view sounds extreme, and I was arguing against it myself in the beginning, when talking to my relatives over there. However, eventually I was convinced.

[Thor]

Yeah no need for name calling, I do appreciate getting his perspective and still think that video is quite dishonest and sensationalist. Until other non Russia sources can confirm the things said in this video we have to take it with a grain of salt considering RT's well known reputation as a propaganda arm for the Putin government.

[karl262]

Ukraine is claiming one of their jets was shot down by a Russian air-to-air missile

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07...o-air-missile/

KYIV, Ukraine — An Air Force fighter jet has been shot down by an air-to-air missile fired from a Russian plane, a spokesman for Ukraine’s Security Council said Thursday.
Andrei Lysenko also said Ukrainian troops had been fired upon by missiles from a village just inside Russia.
Officials in Kyiv have recently accused Russia’s armed forces of being directly implicated in attacks on Ukrainian troops battling an insurgency near the border.

Also Interfax is just reporting now that a Malaysian passenger airliner has crashed over Eastern Ukraine. 295 people on board.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0FM1TU20140717

(Reuters) - A Malaysian passenger airliner with 295 people on board crashed in Ukraine near the Russian border, Interfax cited an aviation industry source as saying on Thursday.
It said the Boeing plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. Reuters could not immediately confirm the Interfax report.

Edit: Maybe not crashed, but shot down by SAM.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Malaysia Airlines cannot catch a break, but if the rebels did indeed shoot this plane down they are finished now. International reaction will be incredibly fierce, no way they can go forward.

[nik-]

Oh man yeah, if they just shot down a passenger liner ... they ####ed up

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by nik-

Oh man yeah, if they just shot down a passenger liner ... they ####ed up

Ukraine is just trying to build the same rep that Russia has.......

[karl262]

Interfax, which is a Russian news agency, is quoting the Ukrainian Interior Ministry stating is was shot down by seperatists.

Reuters World@ReutersWorld




#BREAKING: Ukrainian Interior Ministry adviser said the Buk missile was fired by separatists: Interfax

2 minutes ago

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by nik-

Oh man yeah, if they just shot down a passenger liner ... they ####ed up

Just food for thought...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_007

[burn_this_city]

The Americans have also shot down an Iranian passenger plane in the past.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just food for thought...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_007[

and dessert


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_902

[gvitaly]

Ukrainian Interior Ministry adviser said the Buk missile was fired by separatists

I don't think he could've said anything different...

So the separatists launch missiles against their own homes, families, previous work places, etc? Because that's where the bulk of the destruction is happening. Also they must have quite a big supply of missiles somewhere, and launchers etc. In addition, the Ukrainian army can't find them meanwhile having full air superiority? Or does Russia bring fresh supplies every morning? If so where is the proof.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I don't think he could've said anything different...

So the separatists launch missiles against their own homes, families, previous work places, etc? Because that's where the bulk of the destruction is happening. Also they must have quite a big supply of missiles somewhere, and launchers etc. Also, the Ukrainian army can't find them meanwhile having full air superiority? Or does Russia bring fresh supplies every morning? If so where is the proof.

haha god, just stop.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by nik-

haha god, just stop.

Alright I will stop, I won't argue this topic with you guys anymore. Believe what you want to believe...

I just really wish you experience it all on your own skin just for one day Mr nik, before trying to ridicule(or just insult?) me for no reason. Everyone is always so brave sitting behind a keyboard.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Alright I will stop, I won't argue this topic with you guys anymore. Believe what you want to believe...

I just really wish you experience it all on your own skin just for one day Mr nik, before trying to ridicule(or just insult?) me for no reason. Everyone is always so brave sitting behind a keyboard.

What are you even talking about? We're experiencing it on the same level as you are ... just without the RT propaganda machine.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I don't think he could've said anything different...

So the separatists launch missiles against their own homes, families, previous work places, etc? Because that's where the bulk of the destruction is happening. Also they must have quite a big supply of missiles somewhere, and launchers etc. In addition, the Ukrainian army can't find them meanwhile having full air superiority? Or does Russia bring fresh supplies every morning? If so where is the proof.

I'm hoping there will surface a satellite shot of the missile being launched, tracking the airplane and making contact. Where exactly the missile was launch from will be all the evidence I need to place blame where it belongs. If it was fired from a Ukrainian army held territory, then the Ukrainian military is responsible. Same goes for rebel or Russian territory. The question to you gvitaly, if the missile was indeed fired from rebel held territory will you accept that rebels were responsible? Or is it just more coup propaganda?

[Street Pharmacist]

The leader of the separatist movement tweeted out that he told the Ukraine to stay out of their sky right after the plane went down and they've been shooting at Ukrainian planes. Is there any doubt here?

[karl262]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The leader of the separatist movement tweeted out that he told the Ukraine to stay out of their sky right after the plane went down and they've been shooting at Ukrainian planes. Is there any doubt here?

do you have a link to his twitter?

[CaptainCrunch]

Its in the other thread.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by karl262

I'm hoping there will surface a satellite shot of the missile being launched, tracking the airplane and making contact. Where exactly the missile was launch from will be all the evidence I need to place blame where it belongs. If it was fired from a Ukrainian army held territory, then the Ukrainian military is responsible. Same goes for rebel or Russian territory. The question to you gvitaly, if the missile was indeed fired from rebel held territory will you accept that rebels were responsible? Or is it just more coup propaganda?

I wasn't actually referring to the plane incident. I am pretty sure the plane was shot down by separatists myself. As they are the ones mostly using ground to air missiles.

I was referring to the comment about them being the ones mostly firing missiles. Unless you don't count things like the BM21(Grad), and air bombings as missiles.

And I do remember I only argue one side, that's because the other has more than enough arguments here.

[FlamesAddiction]

Some people have made comparisons to the situation in Ukraine to the events in the Balkans during the 1990s. I found this write up to be an interesting and accurate description and comparison:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...vic-did-serbia

Basically:

USSR/post USSR anti-EU Russian sphere = Yugoslavia,

Ukraine = Croatia,

Russia = Serbia,

People's Republic of Donetsk = Republic of Serbian Krajina,

Igor Girkin = Milan Martic, and

Putin = Milosevic.




The piece is written from a Ukrainian perspective.

Also, Girkin volunteered in Bosnia and is linked to massacres there:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/igor-strelk...s-1992-1458304