The Cammalleri non-trade

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I know they (Feaster) tried, nobody was biting. There are articles/quotes out there on this.

I recall Burke saying he started off having offers of a 1st + prospect, then closer to the deadline that dropped to a first. And then the rest is history.

And no offense, but I personally don't think highly of Feaster's judgment in these matters. Here's a guy who loses the Tanguay trade because he thought a week before free agency was a good time to pull the trigger. Obviously teams aren't going to give up assets for a top 6 player a few days before they can (potentially) get a player in free agency without that consequence.

Just because nobody was biting with Feaster in charge of sale doesn't mean people couldn't have their arms twisted.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by the2bears

I asked you why you think the Iginla and Bowmeester trades hurt the Flames. Some vague notion about the value of the return isn't a good enough answer. How did the 2 extra first round picks hurt us? Let alone the pieces that came with those picks. Getting those picks definitely help us in the rebuild.

Your argument seems to be that anything less than optimal value in a trade hurts us. How many trades actually achieve optimal value? Seems very unrealistic a criteria, and yes, a little irrational.

You clearly don't understand the important factor of asset management at all. This is not an inquisition, I do not owe you an answer, especially to someone so condescending.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I recall Burke saying he started off having offers of a 1st + prospect, then closer to the deadline that dropped to a first. And then the rest is history.
.

No - those describe the asking prices, not offers made.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by AcGold

You clearly don't understand the important factor of asset management at all. This is not an inquisition, I do not owe you an answer, especially to someone so condescending.

You are right in that you do not owe me an answer. Why engage on a discussion forum, though?

Where was I condescending? I've highlighted above where you were.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No - those describe the asking prices, not offers made.

Vanek yield a better return in October than he did in March. I can believe Burke had to adjust to a shifting market. Otherwise, why would he dramatically lower his asking price?

[FanIn80]

We came out alright in the end. A very exciting end to the season, in which Cammy paid a huge part, and we still got Bennett anyway.

It's all good imo.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I blame Burke for not forecasting the market better and for not trading Cammy earlier in the season, but I don't blame Burke for not taking a crappy deal at the deadline. All these guys do is make trades with the same 30 guys for consecutive years.

All salesman know who to prey on when they see an easy meal.

I take Burke's comments about this at face value as they make a lot of sense. Gillis' handling of Kesler threw a wrench into the market. A wrench that neither Burke nor anyone else could have seen coming. Through what November/December the Canucks were trending for a 100 point season, then had an epic collapse.

The Vancouver collapse combined with Gillis' incompetence adding to an already deep buyers market I believe artificially reduced the value of all high scoring wingers.

So take an artificially low value, and combine that with teams being used to taking advantage of Calgary, equals offers for Cammalleri that were simply too low to accept.

[OzSome]

They gambled and they lost..no big deal. It happens to a lot of teams. Flames think they can re-sign Cammy when they couldn't find a trading partner in the deadline. Unfortunately it didn't work out at the end. Not upset or dissapointed at all in Flames or Cammy.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

this was your only post in that thread

The question wasn't directed at me so I thought you were simply looking at pages of outrage from posters here in general. I've been critical of Feaster for not having moved his UFAs only to miss the playoffs and it's sprinkled about in different threads. Point is that many of us were critical of Feaster for not moving the UFAs that he wasn't going to re-sign. This isn't criticism directed at Burke only.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by FAN

The question wasn't directed at me so I thought you were simply looking at pages of outrage from posters here in general. I've been critical of Feaster for not having moved his UFAs only to miss the playoffs and it's sprinkled about in different threads. Point is that many of us were critical of Feaster for not moving the UFAs that he wasn't going to re-sign. This isn't criticism directed at Burke only.

I think after the first 6 posts, it was mostly about people being pissed that Tim Jackman was signed then not trading players.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I blame Burke for not forecasting the market better and for not trading Cammy earlier in the season

When? There simply weren't that many teams who could fit his $6M cap hit under their cap until very late in the season. Because of the new CBA and the lower cap, most of the top teams were tight against the cap all season long. Even if the Flames had retained half of Cammalleri's salary, there were very few teams who could have made it work.


There was the added problem of Cammalleri going down with a concussion and missing 9 games in late January. If Burke had been preparing to move Cammalleri just prior to the Olympic break (a time when many trades took place in 2010), his injury threw that plan out of whack. Plus, we didn't see a bunch of trades prior to the break this time around.


He returned from the injury with 4 games left before the Olympic break. He had 0 points in those 4 games. They played 3 more games after the break before the trade deadline, and he had 1 point in those 3 games.

Cammalleri only had 2 points between Christmas and the trade deadline, and missed 9 games due to a concussion in that time. It's not really surprising that teams weren't lining up to throw first round picks at the Flames for his services. He had more than half his total points for the season after the deadline.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by getbak

When? There simply weren't that many teams who could fit his $6M cap hit under their cap until very late in the season. Because of the new CBA and the lower cap, most of the top teams were tight against the cap all season long. Even if the Flames had retained half of Cammalleri's salary, there were very few teams who could have made it work.


There was the added problem of Cammalleri going down with a concussion and missing 9 games in late January. If Burke had been preparing to move Cammalleri just prior to the Olympic break (a time when many trades took place in 2010), his injury threw that plan out of whack. Plus, we didn't see a bunch of trades prior to the break this time around.


He returned from the injury with 4 games left before the Olympic break. He had 0 points in those 4 games. They played 3 more games after the break before the trade deadline, and he had 1 point in those 3 games.

Cammalleri only had 2 points between Christmas and the trade deadline, and missed 9 games due to a concussion in that time. It's not really surprising that teams weren't lining up to throw first round picks at the Flames for his services. He had more than half his total points for the season after the deadline.

Meh, its a results business. I'm sure Burke - like any good manager - would accept responsibility.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Meh, its a results business. I'm sure Burke - like any good manager - would accept responsibility.

Someone comes at you with 4 paragraphs of cold hard facts and that's the best rebuttal you could come up with? Nice work.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Someone comes at you with 4 paragraphs of cold hard facts and that's the best rebuttal you could come up with? Nice work.

Cold hard facts? This isn't a science class. Could Burke trade Cammy at any point in the regular season before the draft? Nobody but Burke knows that answer...


I said I blame Burke for not forecasting the market, no excuses. That's just business, and sadly only the results matter and not the circumstances. This is because we assume that no GM is intentionally incompetent. Burke has mentioned several times about how these guys have a special job because nobody can grade them right away until it all comes out in the wash. It is what it is.

I'm not pissed off about not trading Cammy. But I call it as I see it. I was being concise, that's all.

[Hackey]

No point in arguing with someone who won't even consider the reality of the situation.

Cammy was hurt. I don't care should have known he would get hurt.
Teams had no cap space. I don't care tell them to open up 6 million dollars for Cammy.
He had 2 points between Christmas and the deadline. I don't care tell them he had 82pts in 08.

Where exactly was he suppose to forecast the market?

[MarkGio]

Ugh, fine. Sorry Getback.

According to the following dates, Cammy could've been traded any other time:
http://flames.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=64733

Based on this article, Gillis didn't openly have Kesler on the block until at least early March.
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=9555075

Finally, here's all the known trade interest during these dates
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=675589


I stand by my comments that there weren't any excuses. But again, meh, #### happens.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Ugh, fine. Sorry Getback.

According to the following dates, Cammy could've been traded any other time:
http://flames.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=64733

Based on this article, Gillis didn't openly have Kesler on the block until at least early March.
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=9555075

Finally, here's all the known trade interest during these dates
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=675589


I stand by my comments that there weren't any excuses. But again, meh, #### happens.

I have no idea what any of these links prove. The injury report? A list of all the trades made this year? What??????

For a trade to be completed two teams have to agree on the value of the player. That never happened - so the player was never moved. There are all sorts of factors but at the end of the day - prior to deadline day Burke didn't get the value he wanted - and on deadline day itself he chose to keep the player rather than move him for a 3rd.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Hackey

No point in arguing with someone who won't even consider the reality of the situation.

Cammy was hurt. I don't care should have known he would get hurt.
Teams had no cap space. I don't care tell them to open up 6 million dollars for Cammy.
He had 2 points between Christmas and the deadline. I don't care tell them he had 82pts in 08.

Where exactly was he suppose to forecast the market?

Could Cammy yield more than a 3rd rounder earlier in the season? Nobody knows. But that's what he was apparently worth at the deadline and that wasn't good enough for Burke. Burke stated that he progressively had to drop his asking price closer to the deadline, and being an experienced GM, I'm sure he knows that nobody is going to take your calls for very long if you're asking for the moon, so the market asking price cannot be too outrageous.

Given the results, I don't think its unreasonable to expect that Cammy was worth more than a 3rd at some point during the season, especially when the team has stated to be willing to hold back salary.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Ugh, fine. Sorry Getback.

According to the following dates, Cammy could've been traded any other time:
http://flames.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=64733

Based on this article, Gillis didn't openly have Kesler on the block until at least early March.
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=9555075

Finally, here's all the known trade interest during these dates
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=675589


I stand by my comments that there weren't any excuses. But again, meh, #### happens.

Still doesn't address the issue of cap space. Still doesn't prove there was any real interest in Cammy. And basically your saying Burke should have known months before hand that the offers at the deadline were going to be weak when usually that is when you get overpayments. Tell me exactly how he was suppose to know this months before and find a trade partner willing to clear cap space to land a player who has a history of injuries and was having a terrible season.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I have no idea what any of these links prove. The injury report? A list of all the trades made this year? What??????

For a trade to be completed two teams have to agree on the value of the player. That never happened - so the player was never moved. There are all sorts of factors but at the end of the day - prior to deadline day Burke didn't get the value he wanted - and on deadline day itself he chose to keep the player rather than move him for a 3rd.

It proves nothing. Nothing we say can prove or disprove anything.

All I was showing that there was windows of opportunity to move Cammy, there was market movement during these time frames, and that the Kesler barrier didn't come up during the bulk of this opportunity period.

It was a rebuttal to Getback's point.