Summer 2014 Prospect Ranking Poll Rd2

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by codynw

Once they switched him back to LW he started playing much better in the AHL. I still think he'll be an effective top 6 player in the NHL.

Yes, and that is a positive. But there still are a heck of a lot of question marks surrounding this player. Seems odd to rank him so high based on playing "much better" but still not in a top offensive role. He also didn't really step up when other players went to the big club or were injured in any meaningful way.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Very surprised there is still so much Baertschi faith...

Baertschi had a disappointing year, but you make it sound as if he is approaching the brink in his developmental trajectory. He is still very young, and there is still ample time for him to figure it out. At the end of the day, he is still one of the most skilled players in the Flames' system with one of the highest potential ceilings. Sure, he may not get there, but there should be no surprise that this alone—and at the tender age of 21-years-old—is more than enough to convince fans to keep the faith.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Baertschi had a disappointing year, but you make it sound as if he is approaching the brink in his developmental trajectory. He is still very young, and there is still ample time for him to figure it out. At the end of the day, he is still one of the most skilled players in the Flames' system with one of the highest potential ceilings. Sure, he may not get there, but there should be no surprise that this alone—and at the tender age of 21-years-old—is more than enough to convince fans to keep the faith.

I don't mean to suggest I think he is a bust. There is still a lot of time and he may turn it around as soon as this year. But I certainly wouldn't consider him as the second or third best prospect in the system with players like Poirier, Klimchuk, Granlund etc showing as much upside as they do.

EDIT: Also, a bad year is a bad year. If Gaudreau goes to the AHL and has a year similar to Baertschi's last year, do you think people will still rank him as the #1 prospect next summer? It isn't the final story, but neither is this ranking. It is a snap shot in time and in Sven's case, last year definitely should be taken into consideration IMO.

[SuperMatt18]

Seems so long ago that Sven was considered among the best players in the CHL and was averaging 2 PPG.

Needs to stay healthy this year and have a strong start. If he can do that it will kickstart his confidence.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Baertschi had a disappointing year, but you make it sound as if he is approaching the brink in his developmental trajectory. He is still very young, and there is still ample time for him to figure it out. At the end of the day, he is still one of the most skilled players in the Flames' system with one of the highest potential ceilings. Sure, he may not get there, but there should be no surprise that this alone—and at the tender age of 21-years-old—is more than enough to convince fans to keep the faith.

Yeah he still has another year to figure it out before he loses his waiver free eligibility. As of now though he isn't progressing and if he's ranked in the top five, I believe it's more an emotional pick than an informed one.

[Poe969]

I'm surprised with the Baertschi love too...it's not that I've lost all faith in Baertschi, it's just that I think he's been passed by other prospects. I still think he'll end up as one of our top prospects but IMO (and others it seems) he's not in the top 3 anyway

[Lanny_McDonald]

Something about prospects and development that people are forgetting is the position the Flames stated a couple years ago. Players needed to step up and show they are NHL caliber by the 2nd or 3rd year of professional service or they would be in tough to hang around. This was under the Feaster admin, but the line still plays. That is basically your entry level contract where you have to show you can play. Baertschi is coming to the end of that contract window, so it only makes sense that he's going to be expected to step up and prove he can play in the NHL in the capacity expected. People tend to forget he is coming into the third year of professional hockey. He's got to step up his game or he's going to get passed by. That's not ridiculous or nonsense, it's just the reality of his situation.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Papi34

I feel Sven is a classic case of lost shine with new toys. Everyone wants to crown Bennett because hes the new shiny toy yet Sven was drafted 7 spots later than Sam and showed tremendous skill in jr and the ability to compete in the NHL and AHL, kid is still 21 and has a never quit attitude and will work hard to get back to the NHL. I think he impresses people this camp and makes the team.

I see it differently with Sven. Sven was the shiny new toy, considered to be the Flames best prospect at one time, and because of that, many people are having a hard time ranking players higher than him now.

Last year was disappointing for him, he should drop in the rankings. You want to see a young player improve year after year and I don't think you saw that with Sven last season. We also see some evidence that Sven might be too fragile (injury-prone) to be an impact player in the NHL.

Right now I think I would place him in the 6th spot.

1. Bennett
2. Gaudreau
3. Granlund
4. Poirier
5. Ortio
6. Baertschi

[codynw]

Am I the only one that wasn't very impressed with Ortio? He wasn't as bad as Berra, but he certainly wasn't good. He's been great in the AHL, but I still think he's about 2-3 years away from the NHL. And I would personally have Sven ranked 4th.

1. Gaudreau
2. Bennett
3. Poirier
4. Baertschi

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Papi34

I feel Sven is a classic case of lost shine with new toys. Everyone wants to crown Bennett because hes the new shiny toy yet Sven was drafted 7 spots later than Sam and showed tremendous skill in jr and the ability to compete in the NHL and AHL, kid is still 21 and has a never quit attitude and will work hard to get back to the NHL. I think he impresses people this camp and makes the team.

Its a tough debate because they are at different stages of their careers but i still take Sven who has shown me more at a professional level. I agree that Bennett probably has a higher ceiling its all how you view this poll. As of now i believe that Sven is the more promising prospect but that also includes 3 years of development. I have no doubt that Bennett should and will be better in the long run but we are talking prospects right now and the way i interpret that is who will have the biggest impact on the Calgary Flames soonest, to me that is Sven

I think there is a vocal Minority that are allot harder on Baertschi than he deserves, and there are still a couple of people who give him allot more credit than he deserves.

Either way I would have been shocked if he came in the top 2, considering we have the best College prospect since Paul Kariya, and we just drafted the highest player in Flames history. I am also sure he will come in third, most people here still know Sven has time to continue developing

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by codynw

Am I the only one that wasn't very impressed with Ortio?

There is still room for improvement, but like you said, he was sure a hell of a lot better than Berra.

[IliketoPuck]

Apologies for not explaining my Baertschi / Bennett ranking last night. I threw out the one-liner and went to sleep.

Other posters mentioned that some credit must be given to players that have already shown success at the NHL level, but have not yet found a way to stick there permanently.

In my opinion, Baertschi was unfairly utilized last year by the Flames. By no means did he play poorly enough to justify 4th line minutes, and he arguably had excellent chemistry with Monahan and Hudler to start the year. The organization appears to have gone out of their way to take pressure off Sven, by putting expectations on him that are not consistent with how other players on the Flames are treated.

I would use Glencross as an example to start the season. His first several games were dreadful. He would fire pucks up the middle of the ice in the d-zone, and plays would generally die on his stick. He continued to get top 6 minutes.

Baertschi had one or two rookie mistakes defensively, found himself on the 4th line, and shortly after that in the AHL. Inconsistent.

Granted you can't treat a veteran and a rookie the same, but meritocracy etc. etc.

Long winded post, but I am a big Sven supporter and think he has unfairly slid down the rankings of our prospects, especially since he has proven to be a .5 ppg player in the NHL without top 6 minutes or powerplay time. The kid is a player, and deserves to be ranked #2 in my opinion.

Will Sam Bennett be a great player? Most likely. Has he proven anything in the NHL to this point? No.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I would use Glencross as an example to start the season. His first several games were dreadful. He would fire pucks up the middle of the ice in the d-zone, and plays would generally die on his stick. He continued to get top 6 minutes.

Baertschi had one or two rookie mistakes defensively, found himself on the 4th line, and shortly after that in the AHL. Inconsistent.

Granted you can't treat a veteran and a rookie the same, but meritocracy etc. etc.

The team is invested in the total development of Baertschi, not just whether or not he's better than Glencross. Glencross is who he is, and he's a capable NHL player so they stick with him rather than have one of their top young players get used to bad habits that could hold him back from being as good as he could.

Long winded post, but I am a big Sven supporter and think he has unfairly slid down the rankings of our prospects, especially since he has proven to be a .5 ppg player in the NHL without top 6 minutes or powerplay time. The kid is a player, and deserves to be ranked #2 in my opinion.

Will Sam Bennett be a great player? Most likely. Has he proven anything in the NHL to this point? No.

IMO the best prospect is the one who you think will be the best/most impactful player. That is also up for debate between these two players, but it's not a slight to Baertschi to think that Bennet might end up being better. Sven is still a top 5 prospect here. Probably top 3, depending on who you ask (I'd have him at #4 I think).

[Robbob]

Kind of shocked that it isn't in the 90% for Bennett. I guess I don't quite understand or agree with the thought process others are having. To each their own though. IMO there is a drop after Bennett and Gaudreau.

I think Bennett and Gaudreau (individually) would both be a top one or two on many teams prospect pool. The fact we got both is gravy.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The team is invested in the total development of Baertschi, not just whether or not he's better than Glencross. Glencross is who he is, and he's a capable NHL player so they stick with him rather than have one of their top young players get used to bad habits that could hold him back from being as good as he could.

I absolutely agree, I was only using Glencross as an example of the double standard applied to our players last year.

In the long run Sven will likely benefit from the time spent in the minors developing his two way game. My concern is that the message sent by Flames management has been somewhat twisted, and that now Sven is seen by many as a trade chip or mediocre prospect.

The kid has .5 ppg in the NHL. So does Monahan. He has proven more than any of our other prospects at the NHL level, with limited ice time.

At this point, you could also argue he's proven more than JG.

[RyZ]

Sven has the same PPG as guys like Huberdau, Schiefle and Strome from his draft year over 50 or so NHL games. To think that guys like Granlund or Poirier could be ahead of him is rediculous. Sven is arguably already a top 6 NHL forward offensively.

[Coach]

Well using the same metric Sven has proved more than JG. And if NHL experience is first and foremost there are about 10 guys ahead of JG. I don't think its a double standard necessarily. It may seem so to us, but im sure the conversations between management and Sven have been pretty clear as far as why he is where he is. Because we need 25 year old Sven to be really good. If thats at the cost of having a mediocre 21 year old NHL player, so be it. Its not just about 0.5 pts/game. Monahan played because he was one of the top 4 centers and his play away from the puck is ahead of Sven in a pretty significant way.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Sven has the same PPG as guys like Huberdau, Schiefle and Strome from his draft year over 50 or so NHL games. To think that guys like Granlund or Poirier could be ahead of him is rediculous. Sven is arguably already a top 6 NHL forward offensively.

Granlund and Poirier are in different situations (and I agree about Poirier). Granlund and Baertschi spent the majority of the season on the same team and Granlund was the better player. I'm not sure Granlund was going back down either, if not for the shoulder injury. He got better every game. Seems like a really underrated guy on this board. I've got Granlund number 3 on my list.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Baertschi had one or two rookie mistakes defensively, found himself on the 4th line, and shortly after that in the AHL. Inconsistent.

If you discount the fighters, Baertschi played, by far the most sheltered minutes of the Flames forwards. Easiest offensive zone starts against the easiest competition on the team. By far. And still had the worst advanced stats - which simply means Flames goaltending was always getting pummelled when he was on the ice.

As far as his line-mates, here are the top 3 (all that extra skater lists)
Monahan 67% of the time
Hudler 59% of the time
Stempniak 19.5% of the time
Anyone else he played with was less than Stempniak. In hindsight, maybe he should have been separated from Monahan, but you can only protect so many players from tough situations, and both needed protecting.

Regardless, all any of the above shows is that Baertschi was not ready to play in the NHL. It doesn't say he doesn't have potential, just that he was some ways from realizing it. Had he ran the show in the AHL, that would have been excellent. Instead, several players passed him there as well.

EDIT: to add player usage chart image (see spoiler)
values at default except 20 game played minimum, showing all forwards
lower = easier competition
right = more offensive zone starts
darker blue = better corsi
darker brown = worse corsi

Spoiler!

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Granlund and Poirier are in different situations (and I agree about Poirier). Granlund and Baertschi spent the majority of the season on the same team and Granlund was the better player. I'm not sure Granlund was going back down either, if not for the shoulder injury. He got better every game. Seems like a really underrated guy on this board. I've got Granlund number 3 on my list.

I use a mixture of potential and how close guys are to reaching it when I rank the players, But I give a little more weight to potential. I plan of following the Flames for a long time, and in the grand scheme 3-4 years is not a long time to wait, so I'm ranking how important players are as assets to the franchise.

I have Granlund 10th. I think it speaks more to depth than the Player. I think of his potential as a low end #2 C or High End #3. There are allot of guys that I think have solid 2 line potential and are not much more than a year behind him.

The way I see it right now.

I think they will be Impact players
1. Gaudreau
2. Bennett

I hope they might be Impact Players
3. Baertachi
4. Poirier
5. Gillies

I think there is a good chance they could play solid 2nd line minutes.
6. Klimchuk
7. Wootherspoon
8. Seiloff

They look close to being Solid Depth Players Now (And still have potential to grow)
9. Kanzig
10. Granlund
11. Ortio
12. Knight
13. Reinhart

After that its a mixture of either being at least a year away from making it or lower potential.
14. Wolf
15. Arnold
16. Jankowski
17. McDonald
18. Agostino
19. Kulak
20. Culkin

Still some players that have a good chance of turning into NHLers omitted from that list.