[GDT] Development Camp Scrimmage: July 9th 10AM MT. calgaryflames.com

[heep223]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

of the "1 or 2 spots", gaudreau/reinhart/granlund/knight at the minimum could be guys who are able to push their way on to the opening day roster with strong training camps in my opinion.

I think bennet will be going down, just a hunch of course.

I think Baertshi is coming to come out of left field and make the team out of camp. On RW. Now that he doesn't have all the pressure on him anymore.

[Caged Great]

Here are several of Group B's players

Ken Agostino
Johnny Gaudreau
Tim Harrison
David Wolf

Tomorrow's articles will be Sam Bennett, Hunter Smith, Mason McDonald and Keegan Kanzig.

[Dajazz]

I don't get the ratings.

2,5 is average NHL talent. You are saying that even marginal prospects that didn't stand out in camp still have average NHL talent.

I appreciate the write up, but not sure it gives me a picture of how they will project.

[combustiblefuel]

I would really like to see the Tooth Fairy make the team out of the training camp. Seems he is a 3rd and 4th line tweener. A German Bouma with more fighting skill and scoring touch. A bull with more gore.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Here are several of Group B's players

Ken Agostino
Johnny Gaudreau
Tim Harrison
David Wolf

Tomorrow's articles will be Sam Bennett, Hunter Smith, Mason McDonald and Keegan Kanzig.

I definitely think wolf is better then bouma as per your accounts . In a few categories I would have rated him a 3.5 not a 2.5. He does have softer hands on his shots but more accurate. His passing is 3.8 IMO there crisp and quick. You had him rated as 2.5 on skating. I'd say 3.4 He is quick in short but not long distance. Quite the sprinter. He won't beat you down the whole ice but I think that his skating is definetly a bottom 6 tweener style.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

I don't get the ratings.

2,5 is average NHL talent. You are saying that even marginal prospects that didn't stand out in camp still have average NHL talent.

I appreciate the write up, but not sure it gives me a picture of how they will project.

A 2.5 is basically means that the specific tool is okay, not something that'll make them stick by itself. If you have all 2.5's you're going to be a guy that has a hard time sticking in the NHL but could have several cups of coffee or be a journeyman like Mark Smith or David Van Der Gulik or...... just an okay depth guy. Usually players have different aspects where they are significantly better than average in and that makes them stick in the NHL even though they might be average in lots of areas. Mikael Backlund for example would probably score a 2.5-2.75 with his shot, but would get a 4 for his hockey sense. A potential 1st liner would/should have mostly 4's.

It's also not so much about the raw tools, but how they are applied that'll determine whether they will become an NHL talent. I'm going to use an extreme example here, but Anders Eriksson as a prospect back when he was with Detroit would've scored 4's in a lot of categories except one. The area that he would've got close to a 1 in was hockey sense, and that limited his overall ability. He should've been a star player if it wasn't for that. Because of his higher end skills, he was traded 1 for 1 for Chris Chelios when Chelios was still good. Chicago thought he'd be able to put everything together, but that one deficiency made him nothing more than a bubble guy on a bunch of teams.

Gaudreau is another potential example of this. He has all the talent in the world, but his height could limit him, either by getting injured or not being able to navigate through the NHL players.

Also, the Flames have a large amount of players that could make the NHL in some aspect. I know it seems like my ratings are all sunshine and roses, but in my rankings last year, I tore several guys apart because of holes in their game (Ryan Howse being the most notable, but I also ragged on Ortio for having a really bad attitude in not giving the camp any effort whatsoever). None of the returning players I watched took a step backwards from where they were last year. That's more of a shock to me than anything. There's usually one guy that just falls off the face of the planet, but not this time. Culkin and Roy didn't improve as much as the rest, but they did improve.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by heep223

I think Baertshi is coming to come out of left field and make the team out of camp. On RW. Now that he doesn't have all the pressure on him anymore.

He wasn't very effective on RW in Abbotsford. In fact, his production only started to improve once Ward moved him back to the left.

Some players are naturally decent at playing their off wings. Others just aren't.

I have to think it's now or never for Sven. Gaudreau is going to make it very difficult for the Flames to demote him, so Baertschi had better come into camp in the best shape of his life to even have a shot at the NHL. Klimchuk and Poirier could pass him on the depth chart very soon too, as Granlund and Reinhart already have.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

None of the returning players I watched took a step backwards from where they were last year. That's more of a shock to me than anything. There's usually one guy that just falls off the face of the planet, but not this time.

I think the guys that may have fallen off the face of the earth were not extended contracts or had exceeded the number of times they could come to this camp. There were some high profile guys that would have been been beneficial to see how they looked against their peers, unfortunately they were injured and unable to participate. The one guy that would have been most interesting to see was Baertschi, but he was unable to attend and also nursing his ribs. Of all the players we see as possible future Flames I think Baerstchi is the only one who had an off year in development. As Flamezilla suggested, this could be the make or break training camp for Baertschi. There are only so many positions on the NHL roster and he's got a lot of competition. Training camp is going to be very interesting this year.

[ignite09]

Baertschi is only 21, this is hardley a make or break training camp for him. Frankly, as long as his attitude is positive and he's motivated, a full year on the top line in the AHL might be better for him in the long run.

[Gaskal]

When does Sven have to clear waivers to be sent down?

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

When does Sven have to clear waivers to be sent down?

2015-2016 season or if he plays more than 92 NHL games this season

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by ignite09

Baertschi is only 21, this is hardley a make or break training camp for him. Frankly, as long as his attitude is positive and he's motivated, a full year on the top line in the AHL might be better for him in the long run.

His attitude is key. He has to be patient, and the organisation has to be patient with him as well.

How will he handle another year in the minors? For his sake, and the teams sake, I hope he comes into training camp faster & stronger & plays his way back into the blueprint of the rebuild. Otherwise patience might run out from one party or the other.

[AcGold]

It's good that he has to earn the spot. Having to be better than someone else is exactly what we need our prospects to do, if Baertschi can't take one of 3 spots he shouldn't play in the NHL, he should be driven to be better than everyone else to get that spot.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by AcGold

It's good that he has to earn the spot. Having to be better than someone else is exactly what we need our prospects to do, if Baertschi can't take one of 3 spots he shouldn't play in the NHL, he should be driven to be better than everyone else to get that spot.

I'm pulling for baertschi to have a great camp as make the team more than anyone else. He's ha a rough time and been treated harshly by a lot of the fan base it seems. He really turned up his game in abbotsford and was the best player on the team for the last part of the season. I would love to see baertschi, Monahan, and colborne on a line opening night.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

A 2.5 is basically means that the specific tool is okay, not something that'll make them stick by itself. If you have all 2.5's you're going to be a guy that has a hard time sticking in the NHL but could have several cups of coffee or be a journeyman like Mark Smith or David Van Der Gulik or...... just an okay depth guy. Usually players have different aspects where they are significantly better than average in and that makes them stick in the NHL even though they might be average in lots of areas. Mikael Backlund for example would probably score a 2.5-2.75 with his shot, but would get a 4 for his hockey sense. A potential 1st liner would/should have mostly 4's.

It's also not so much about the raw tools, but how they are applied that'll determine whether they will become an NHL talent. I'm going to use an extreme example here, but Anders Eriksson as a prospect back when he was with Detroit would've scored 4's in a lot of categories except one. The area that he would've got close to a 1 in was hockey sense, and that limited his overall ability. He should've been a star player if it wasn't for that. Because of his higher end skills, he was traded 1 for 1 for Chris Chelios when Chelios was still good. Chicago thought he'd be able to put everything together, but that one deficiency made him nothing more than a bubble guy on a bunch of teams.

Gaudreau is another potential example of this. He has all the talent in the world, but his height could limit him, either by getting injured or not being able to navigate through the NHL players.

Also, the Flames have a large amount of players that could make the NHL in some aspect. I know it seems like my ratings are all sunshine and roses, but in my rankings last year, I tore several guys apart because of holes in their game (Ryan Howse being the most notable, but I also ragged on Ortio for having a really bad attitude in not giving the camp any effort whatsoever). None of the returning players I watched took a step backwards from where they were last year. That's more of a shock to me than anything. There's usually one guy that just falls off the face of the planet, but not this time. Culkin and Roy didn't improve as much as the rest, but they did improve.

Thanks, I was also confused. If 2.5 is the 'baseline' for each skill then I would expect the true average NHLer to average out around 3-3.5? Otherwise your ratings seem too optimistic.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ignite09

Baertschi is only 21, this is hardley a make or break training camp for him. Frankly, as long as his attitude is positive and he's motivated, a full year on the top line in the AHL might be better for him in the long run.

Not if he gets passed by multiple players in the system. If the Flames are serious about small players in the lineup, it is important that Baertschi establish himself as a NHL player before the likes of Gaudreau, Granlund and Klimchuk. Once a player is established it is harder for a young guy to take that spot away, especially from another young guy who all of a sudden casts himself in a core role. The longer he takes to come around, the harder it will be for him to cut a place out for himself on the big club. Baertschi needs to step up and prove he's better than Gaudreau and Granlund, because it appears they have the inside track on those top LW positions. It is unlikely Baertschi plays on the 3rd or 4th lines, so there is probably one position he has to fight for. I hope he steps it up. We need the talent we saw in his final year in junior.

[Badgers Nose]

Seven is another Backlund in terms of dev speed. Will be worth the wait, but will be a while.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

Not if he gets passed by multiple players in the system. If the Flames are serious about small players in the lineup, it is important that Baertschi establish himself as a NHL player before the likes of Gaudreau, Granlund and Klimchuk. Once a player is established it is harder for a young guy to take that spot away, especially from another young guy who all of a sudden casts himself in a core role.

See, the thing is though, that despite all our strong feelings, and our convictions formed through hours of viewings and by pouring over team releases and scouting reports, we—the fans—don't really have any idea about where Baertschi fits into the Flames' long term plans. We really have no idea about how he compares in the minds of management to his peers. We can guess, but I am willing to venture that our guesses are more often wrong than right. In short, none of us really has any clue whether or not any other players in the system have "passed" Baertschi.

I suspect that management is not all that worried yet about Baertschi's development, or whether or not he has "established himself as an NHL player." He's 21. There is still LOTS of time, and having another four or five talented prospects in the system is not going to change that.

Originally Posted by New Era

The longer he takes to come around, the harder it will be for him to cut a place out for himself on the big club. Baertschi needs to step up and prove he's better than Gaudreau and Granlund, because it appears they have the inside track on those top LW positions. It is unlikely Baertschi plays on the 3rd or 4th lines, so there is probably one position he has to fight for. I hope he steps it up. We need the talent we saw in his final year in junior.

This is nonsense. Baertschi just needs to play his game and work towards what makes him a useful and successful pro. One could argue that Baertschi's problems (which are not altogether serious or unexpected) have much more to do with precisely what you are hoping for—he has already spent too much time dwelling on his "place" within the organisation at the expense of becoming a better player. I would actually counter that the more time he spends worrying about what everyone else is doing, the more time he is wasting and detracting from his OWN development, and his OWN future. He will get there. But everyone just needs to calm the hell down and be patient. Honestly, the worst thing management could do now is take you chicken-little approach, and start to press the kid with ultimatums.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Sven is another Backlund in terms of dev speed. Will be worth the wait, but will be a while.

I think this is what we're all hoping the case will be. Players like Backlund and Kadri showed glimpses of brilliance as 20-22 year olds, but had to round out their game in the AHL before becoming impact players in the NHL.

If Baertchi's attitude is anything like Backlund it won't be an issue. Not saying that's the case, but here's hoping.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I may not care if Baertschi gets passed on the depth chart, or I may be disappointed, but that all depends on Baertschi.

If Baertschi comes out like he did last year where he is just not doing what he needs to do, I will be disappointed. He will continue to get passed in the organization.

If Baertschi comes out hard and does very well, but others in the organization still pass him, I won't care so much. In fact, I will be happy. This just means that the prospect base is even better.

There is no one mishandling Baertschi (any longer since Feaster left - anointing him as the next one and forcing Hartley to have him in the lineup was mishandling him). Hartley doesn't 'hate' Baertschi. Heck, we all know Hartley and Blair Jones had a huge argument on the ice about Blair not doing the things that Hartley wants, but the very next season Blair gets bumped up and plays the PP.

If Baertschi feels he is an NHL player, he will simply play like an NHL player. If he is not ready, he will continue to be in the AHL until he gets ready. If he gets passed by other prospects, then that is the way it goes.

I just really hope that if he does continue to get passed this season, that it is because his competition is so good, not because Baertschi is playing mediocre again.