Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[blankall]

Originally Posted by smoothpops

It's hard to explain, but i'll give it a shot (there's so much history and intangibles, that one post isn't enough) . Living conditions in Palestine are horrendous. the IDF can basically arrest and burn down/bomb houses indiscriminately (which they do, and they don't). hospitals are underfunded and there's no insurance. food and access to water in some places are cut, and of course there's no jobs and the economy is basically non-existent (Palestinians used to go to Israel and work there during the day, but now they can't reliably get through security check points). All of this has been going on long before Hamas was elected. Here's where Hamas comes in, (and why Palestinians won't just get rid of them);
because of foreign funding (Iran and previously Egypt) Hamas provides jobs and monetary allowances, they act as the police and firecrews, they rebuild houses that have been torn down and give montary compensation, they help build and fund hospitals, they act as insurance companies, they maintain the tunnels so people can smuggle in goods, gas and food. to the outside world they're terrorists, but to Palestinians they're seen as freedom fighters. It's david vs Goliath, and while David may provoke goliath, to them goliath is and has always been a bully. Hamas provides integral services that they depend on, and that dependency has only increased since 2007 when they were voted in as their government.
Anyone that was put in Palestinian conditions would accept Hamas' help. If Hamas had been there offering all this after Katrina, New Orleans would be voting them into office.

You're really discounting the religious and thug like nature of Hamas.

One of the first acts of Hamas upon election was to put a stranglehold on the population of Gaza. They threw rivals off buildings and dragged them behind cars.

They've also gradually clamped down on the female population. First it was the enforcement of a dress code. Then it was a ban on females from dancing, going to hookah bars, going to barbershops, etc..It's also not a coincidence that minorities (both racial and religious) no longer exist in the Gaza Strip. Considering the history of the middle east and the historical diversity of the area, that's deliberate genocide.

I don't downplay the effect of Israel's military occupation on the Palestinian people as a whole, but you also have to take into account the effect of banning women from your workforce, strictly controlling education, and having one of the world's highest growth rates will have on your economy and employment opportunities.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

During the 3 week operation, over 1400 Palestinians were killed, 5300 injured and 50,000 displaced.

Maybe not carpet bombing in the true sense of the word, but how does indiscriminate destruction and murder sound?

You know as well as I do that this war was due to a never ending barrage of rockets being shot by Hamas. IDF invaded and the end result was a significant decrease in rocket attacks.

What did I find in your link? Hamas was indiscriminately firing the missiles at Israeli towns (yet you accuse Israel of this), Hamas attacked from population centres (human shields), Hamas fought in civilian clothes and commandeered nurse uniforms and ambulances to stage attacks, stored rockets in mosques, etc etc.

All Hamas has to do is stop the violence. If that was the case, I would have no leg to stand on in these debates.

And yes, lots of death, most of it Palestinian, and it sucks. Big time. But I don't doubt for a second Israel would do the same if rockets kept coming down.

The worst part in this? No outcry from the world during the missile attacks, the only outcry is when Israel defends itself.

[smoothpops]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Living conditions are often considered better than the rest of the arab world, but yah I figured you would gloss over that. Living conditions of Palestinians living in Israel? World class. Hamas does a terrible job of raising the quality of life via terror. Please let me know when the IDF is doing this. From every good source, the only reason there is any threat from IDF is due to rockets and other terrorism. The fact you do not mention this is very telling and one sided

You forgot to mention that Palestinians get treatment also at Israeli hospitals, including Abbas' wife. Things were going well for Palestinians until the intifadah, why don't you mention that?



They also launch rockets from their houses, schools and hospitals. They are seen as freedom fighters due to radical teaching.



They are terrorists, nice try painting them as anything but.



So what do you explain for the radicals in the rest of the Arab world? This is the only region immune to it due to big bad Israel? If things were going well for Palestinians the rest of the Arab world would look pretty bad due to their low standard of living - they cannot afford Palestinians to do well and so fund Hamas.

Huh? I was just answering a question that has a complicated answer. I think both sides are reprehensible in their own ways, and people like you (on both sides) only prolong this asinine conflict and try to pull every one into the muck with them. If it was up to me, Palestinians would get shipped to the north pole, and Israelis to the south pole and we'll see if they couldn't find a way to get along after 10 years of those conditions

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Approx. 450,000 Israeli illegal West Bank settlers get 5 times more water than the 2 million Palestinians. This is not "everyone dips into everyone else's wells". It's Israel treating the Palestinians like garbage. And last month they withheld $100 million because the Swiss government allowed Palestine to join the Geneva convention regarding rules of war and occupation. Before that, Israel withheld taxes when Palestine was granted upgraded status at the UN. So, basically whenever Palestine tries to become part of the int'l community, Israel responds by withholding their money. Yup, israel sure wants peace.

The Palestinian authority only uses about 20% of the water it has access to. The reason being poor infrastructure.

The main reason for the poor infrastructure is actually corruption by Arafat and his cronies. In the 1970s-2000s, the Palestinian population exploded. During that time they were given more per capita aid than any other group. Water resources went undeveloped and Arafat built palaces and funneled billions into private bank accounts.

Israel isn't stealing anyone's water. The water is not being harvested and it's pouring into the ocean and dead sea.

As for Israel withholding tax income, firstly the idea of Israel giving the Palestinian government collected tax income and then calling them apartheid-like or genocidal is absurd.

The Palestinian authority also agreed not to seek a unilateral declaration of independence and instead negotiate. This was done so that issues such as borders, refugees, etc.. could be dealt with permanently. They then went back on their word. Israel who had agreed to halt settlement building decided not to keep up their end of the bargain either.

[Kelekin]

This is more civil than some discussions I've seen on the topic. I think the problem with this topic, and what I've seen in every topic I've read on it in my lifetime, is that most opinions are formed based on what we see currently and show a lack of understanding of the history of the region. It has one of the most complex histories in the world and it is not something someone can just spend 30 minutes on Wikipedia looking up and think they understand. I do think it's an unfortunate conflict, but it really is more complicated than most of us realize.

[Flash Walken]

One of the prrimary reasons Israel occupies the Golan Heights is because of the water.

They do this in flagrant violation of international law.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

One of the prrimary reasons Israel occupies the Golan Heights is because of the water.

They do this in flagrant violation of international law.

Israel occupies the Golan Heights because it the strategic high ground in the area. It prevents an invasion from Syria. Israel lost many lives taking the land while being invaded by Syria. If I were Israel, I wouldn't return the Golan Heights to Syria under any circumstances.

The idea that Syria is entitled to access to Lake Tiberius is also false. The only time Syria had access to the lake was between 1949 and 1967. The lake was meant to remain as part of the British Mandate of Palestine, which was to be split between Palestinians and Israelis. Syria invaded the territory in 1949.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

The Palestinian authority only uses about 20% of the water it has access to. The reason being poor infrastructure.

The main reason for the poor infrastructure is actually corruption by Arafat and his cronies. In the 1970s-2000s, the Palestinian population exploded. During that time they were given more per capita aid than any other group. Water resources went undeveloped and Arafat built palaces and funneled billions into private bank accounts.

Israel isn't stealing anyone's water. The water is not being harvested and it's pouring into the ocean and dead sea.

As for Israel withholding tax income, firstly the idea of Israel giving the Palestinian government collected tax income and then calling them apartheid-like or genocidal is absurd.

The Palestinian authority also agreed not to seek a unilateral declaration of independence and instead negotiate. This was done so that issues such as borders, refugees, etc.. could be dealt with permanently. They then went back on their word. Israel who had agreed to halt settlement building decided not to keep up their end of the bargain either.

Oh, please. Israel controls the water in the Palestinian territories. The water allocation is so unfair, that Palestine has to actually buy water from Israel since they don't get fair access in their own territory! As for the taxes issue, Israel didn't object because they wanted to negotiate the issues. They objected because the more int'l bodies the Palestinians have access to, the more Israel could be investigated for crimes.

[SebC]

The situation is an iterated prisoner's dilemma:

If Palestine attacks and Isreal makes concessions, Palestine wins and Israel loses.
If Israel attacks and Palestine makes concessions, Israel wins and Palestine loses.
If Isreal makes concessions and Palestine makes concessions, both win.
If Isreal attacks and Palestine attacks, both lose.

The dominant strategy in an iterated prisoner's dilemma is tit-for-tat with forgiveness. Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza is an instance of "forgiveness". If Gaza was following tit-for-tat with forgiveness, they would've responded with concessions, instead of with rockets.

Seems to me then that only one side of this conflict is following the fundamental strategy that can lead to peace.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Oh, please. Israel controls the water in the Palestinian territories. The water allocation is so unfair, that Palestine has to actually buy water from Israel since they don't get fair access in their own territory! As for the taxes issue, Israel didn't object because they wanted to negotiate the issues. They objected because the more int'l bodies the Palestinians have access to, the more Israel could be investigated for crimes.

Oh, please...don't state facts?

It's a fact that the Palestinians have not fully developed all the water supplies they have and do not pull the full amount they are entitled to under the Oslo Accords. They also lose large amounts of water to leaky pipes. They also have no "grey water" system and refuse to use grey water.

And Israel doesn't go in to the West Bank and steal the water. If flows naturally into Israel from there.

But I guess it's more convenient to say...the average Israeli has x times as much water as the average Palestinians or that Palestinians must buy water off Israelis (at a reduced rated, which was negotiated under the Oslo Accords).

It actually may all be a moot point anyways. Israel has invented a desalination process which will soon be cheaper than piping in water.

[Bill Bumface]

This thread really demonstrates the dynamic over there quite effectively. It's a complex, 2 sided conflict, with both sides refusing to see it as a 2 sided conflict because the other side has done something to piss them off recently.

Can you imagine Nage Waza and _Q_ sitting at a table and hashing out ideas for a solution?

Or would it more likely end in one of them throwing the table at the other and leaving?

.... and these guys both come across as extremely rational and level headed compared to I'm sure what you'd find in the middle of it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

This thread really demonstrates the dynamic over there quite effectively. It's a complex, 2 sided conflict, with both sides refusing to see it as a 2 sided conflict because the other side has done something to piss them off recently.

Can you imagine Nage Waza and _Q_ sitting at a table and hashing out ideas for a solution?

Or would it more likely end in one of them throwing the table at the other and leaving?

.... and these guys both come across as extremely rational and level headed compared to I'm sure what you'd find in the middle of it.

But I get the feeling that Israel would be happy to co-exist with their neighbours.


I don't believe the neighbours have any interest in co-existing with Israel.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

But I get the feeling that Israel would be happy to co-exist with their neighbours.


I don't believe the neighbours have any interest in co-existing with Israel.

I think there are people within Israel that would like Palestine wiped off the map.

There are people in Palestine that would like Israel wiped off the map. They just happen to have the loudest voice.

I think there are plenty of Palestinians that would love nothing more than peace.

To say something like this is one sided and one group "just wants peace" is way over simplifying things.

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Come on. They're brown. They don't really count as people.

You're kidding me, right?

I can't believe no one has called you out for this post yet. What a disgusting thing to say.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

I think there are people within Israel that would like Palestine wiped off the map.

There are people in Palestine that would like Israel wiped off the map. They just happen to have the loudest voice.

I think there are plenty of Palestinians that would love nothing more than peace.

To say something like this is one sided and one group "just wants peace" is way over simplifying things.

Fair comment.


But I have a hazy memory of a middle east country saying something along the lines of they wanted to destroy Israel, but again this is a memory and I have no source (I would happy to be wrong on that point).

This is interesting:

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/03...-israel-video/

The Washington Institute for Near East Policy recently commissioned a survey of Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. The results prove yet again that Palestinian Arab attitudes towards Israel are anything but peaceful.
The clear majority of Palestinians polled – 60 percent, including 55 percent in the West Bank – say that their five year national goal should be “to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea.”
Yes, despite the insistence of biased “experts” who claim that Palestinian Arabs support a two-state solution and only want peace with Israel, the fact is that a convincing majority explicitly say that the real goal is to eliminate Israel altogether.

I can't recall there being a statement by Israel that they wished to destroy Palestine or other neighbours.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

You're kidding me, right?

I can't believe no one has called you out for this post yet. What a disgusting thing to say.

Probably because everyone realized it was an obvious sarcastic statement. Well ... almost everyone.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I can't recall there being a statement by Israel that they wished to destroy Palestine or other neighbours.

Although they would probably be better off if they were an autonomous part of Israel. Palestinians might be Arabs, but they get little actual help from their Arab neighbours when it comes to development. Meanwhile, Arabs that live in Israel have a higher standard of living and freedom than in most neighbouring countries. Not to say that there aren't minority rights issues among Arabs in Israel (we have the same issues with minorities here), but I know where I would rather live if I was a Palestinian and given the choice.

I honestly think part of the reason Palestinians are so militant is because they are living in poverty while Israelis fairly well off. With the gloves off, Israel is an extremely fierce foe and a lot of people want Israel to put the gloves back on, but you can only push a nation so far until they take decisive action even if that action is disproportionate.

[Stealth22]

Originally Posted by nik-

Probably because everyone realized it was an obvious sarcastic statement. Well ... almost everyone.

Maybe I have a lower tolerance than everyone else, then. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

Maybe I have a lower tolerance than everyone else, then. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

Sorry, do you think his post was serious?


I agree it was not funny, and in poor taste, but certainly it was not serious.

[CaptainCrunch]

Yeah I think it was a rare misfire by Devils' Advocate.