Just a thought: Sven for Gormley

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

24 points in 51 games is essentially meaningless without proper context.

Many AHL calibre players can do that given the requisite PP time (which Sven was given) and minutes sheltered from top D men (which Sven was). Add in the fact that he wasn't defensively ready, and it would be fair to say that Sven wasn't an overall positive contributor at the NHL level.

There's a reason that a full season later he still hasn't been summoned.

I like the guy, but purely looking at points in a sheltered, limited sample size isn't proof of anything, or valuable analysis. It's more valuable to know that the NHL guys still see him as an AHL player (at the moment), and he hasn't torn it up in the AHL.

Just stop!

Sven has 1 goal and 3 assists on the PP career and has never seen much time on the PP.

Jesus Christ...are you Burkes cousin?

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

Fine guys, Baertschi was so awesome at the NHL that the Flames deemed that needed more time in the minors. Cool.

But really, ok, you didn't like the words I chose. What's your point? He wasn't NHL material at any point in the last season, and is a guy fighting for a roster spot to start the season. What needs to be said more than that at this point? He has not yet proven to be an NHL player (otherwise he could crack the Flames). All I'm really doing is drawing a comparison to the career path at the moment to Gormley.

Saying he got some points in a limited sample, while doing so in a sheltered, PP filled role, in mostly garbage points of lost seasons, and playing poor defense is not an impressive showing. The NHL is littered with former players that had much more impressive point totals in small samples that failed to have staying power. Why? Because of role context. Baertschi didn't forget how to play hockey last season. He had the same flaws holding him back when he accumulated those points that he has now. You just probably didn't notice.

Listen man, no one is disagreeing with you that he needs more time to develop, but you sound like you're all but writing him off because he hasn't shown a complete NHL calibre game yet, and isn't putting up ppg.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

Proper context? Are you saying that a player who gets pp time and doesn't play against other top lines should be discounted?
He's a young player. You can't expect him to step into the NHL and automatically have a complete game, especially when he wasn't a top 5 pick.
I think he's shown hints at what he might be able to do, but it'll take some more time to fully develop.

Discounted? Of course.

Obviously there's a difference in getting points when you play the role of a Toews or Kopitar. Not all points are equal. You seem to agree with that, so what's the problem?

I'm not saying Baertschi didn't do fine for his age. I like him. I envision him as an NHL player. I'm playing the "give to get" card, and suggesting maybe I'd rather have the defensemen if they are both NHL players.

But was he a bonafide NHL player during that span? I don't think so. The Flames don't think so. No other GM's have obviously enticed the Flames enough with a really enticing package if they were totally impressed with him.

My point is, I'm not sure how you guys can argue he's had "NHL success" when it immediately followed a season's stint in the AHL and was littered with unready defensive play. He has great hands and puck skills, perfect for the role he was utilized in during his stint with the Flames.

That doesn't mean he was a successful NHL player, otherwise that's where he'd be.

[Ashasx]

Before Sven was sent down a lot of people were upset with his lack of PP time during a time in the season when the PP was terrible.

I feel like you are confusing Baertschi with Colborne.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

Listen man, no one is disagreeing with you that he needs more time to develop, but you sound like you're all but writing him off because he hasn't shown a complete NHL calibre game yet, and isn't putting up ppg.

Writing him off? You aren't reading. Here is what I have argued:

1. He wasn't a successful NHL player in prior years
2. I envision him as a top 6 scorer in the near future.

I have been challenged as to the comment in number 1.

However, number 1 has nothing to do with number 2.

It's a difference of player valuation between past and future.

He wasn't great at NHL level in the past, doesn't mean he won't be in the future. He was very young then, no harm in saying he wasn't ready in all aspects of the game. It's just true.

Gormley has hardly even sniffed NHL, but one could also argue he did have a more difficult situation to crack than Sven did.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

I don't see any of those guys having the upside of Gormley for one and secondly I don't see most of those guys having anything more than bottom pairing roles in the NHL (if they get that).

I for sure like Wotherspoon and Sielloff in various roles, but Gormley to me is potentially more than that. Also, I'm not recommending Gorms for AHL duty next year. I clearly stated I envisioned him being ready for the NHL leap next season.

Gormley would not play on the NHL Flames if he were traded today. He would be in the AHL. He is still an AHL player right now. I think the only team he could potentially be an NHL'er player out of camp would be Buffalo where the D situation is pretty bleak.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Drury18

Gormley would not play on the NHL Flames if he were traded today. He would be in the AHL. He is still an AHL player right now. I think the only team he could potentially be an NHL'er player out of camp would be Buffalo where the D situation is pretty bleak.

Gormley could easily be in the mix for the 6 and 7 spots on the Flames next year if he were in the organization.

Could see an opening too if say a Wideman is moved.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

Gormley has hardly even sniffed NHL, but one could also argue he did have a more difficult situation to crack than Sven did.

Disagree. Old Man Morris and Klesla becoming ineffective to the team left a huge opportunity for audition on D for the Yotes. The only locked spots were OEL, Yandle and Michalek (who was injured). Stone was iffy and got himself a spot about mid year.

All Gormley had to do to earn a spot was look better then Summers or Murphy and he didn't. Schlemko sat in the press box most nights and still stayed on ahead of him.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Drury18

Disagree. Old Man Morris and Klesla becoming ineffective to the team left a huge opportunity for audition on D for the Yotes. The only locked spots were OEL, Yandle and Michalek (who was injured). Stone was iffy and got himself a spot about mid year.

All Gormley had to do to earn a spot was look better then Summers or Murphy and he didn't. Schlemko sat in the press box most nights and still stayed on ahead of him.

Remember, they would want the number 7 guy to be a guy who isn't playing every night. Unfair to say he's not better than Schlemko when really it's because you want the guy to develop every night in one of the leagues. Less D spots than F spots to claim a full time role.

Murphy is a good prospect too, one of the guys I am alluding to that would make a Gormley available (but I would understand your argument that an org like Phoenix preferred to give the opportunity to him, not Gorms). Rundblad was also in the mix much of the season and they had to make an evaluation on him to determine his immediate future.

There's a fair bit of talent at different paces in the Coyotes org.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I, for one, need to be 'dazzled' to trade away Sven, and I don't think he is NHL ready yet.

I don't see the point at this stage in trading away prospects from areas of strength to fill areas of need. Year one of the rebuild is over, and the Flames are about to have their 2nd draft. Let's see who the draft and how they are progressing. Let's see how the already drafted prospects progress as well. You may find that an area of strength suddenly becomes and area of weakness due to injuries, or inability to develop, etc.

Let's just keep drafting and developing, and when this team is looking like they are about to turn a corner and start competing, then I think that is the time this team needs to be making trades involving the prospect base to fill holes.

For now, holes will be filled through FAs or minor trades. Warm bodies or placeholders that help the prospects coming through should be the priority.

What if the Flames trade Sven for Gormley. Then they are in a position to suddenly trade Ekblad at #4 (no way Jones was supposed to fall either). What if the 2 2nd rounders end up being Sanheim and another defender? A couple of our existing prospects take another big step forward (which is not out of the question). Klimchuk or Gaudreau don't pan out on top of this. Suddenly Defense looks like a huge strength, and LW starts looking like a weakness.

I think it is rather pointless to start making prospect for prospect trades at the moment as we don't know how they will really develop, and any strengths and weaknesses right now might even completely inverse.

Now, if some team offers a lot for Sven or another notable prospect, then sure. But even 'fair trades' to balance a team or the prospect base at this point in time is premature.

[sun]

Do you ever forget how many e's are in your name?

[Matt Reeeeead]

I think fair points, but I was thinking philosophically, what's harder to acquire, the cusp D-man, or the cusp forward assuming they are both designed to have a solid NHl ceiling.

I think the D-man is, more of a rarity hard to develop. I'm looking at Gormley as a guy that another team has worked most of the kinks out, and is probably close to being able to contribute. I like his upside. Not many like him out there to acquire, looking to get him at the right time from a team with a surplus.

But Sven is cool too, I wouldn't trade him for whatever, just thought that's what is going to appeal to Phoenix. Could see him as Vrbata replacement.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by sun

Do you ever forget how many e's are in your name?

50/50 when logging in. I either do or I don't.

Hate my past self every time for making that the username.

[djsFlames]

As long as Sven can make an attitude adjustment (the inconsistency when winning/losing) and take a page out of Backlund's book, he'll still be a heck of a player. By 25 I think he'll be a bonafide top 6 guy. Look at another swiss kid Niederreiter, he was pretty much written off by NYI for what appeared to be similar reasons, yet didn't even produce near what Sven did in the early games he saw (like 2pts in 70gp). Now a couple years later with Minny he looks to be a legit NHLer. Of course, I wouldn't call him untouchable, but the return for Sven has to be a player of similar potential, and Sven still has a LOT of potential. He won't be sold for spare parts or a risky project type player.

[Yrebmi]

I am surprised no one has played thread police yet. I guess I will.

Matt Reeeeead,
There already is a speculation thread. If everyone began a new thread for every speculation, well then I would speculate the forum would soon be very cluttered.
I know you felt your idea was better than the norm and thus deserving of a new thread, but come on man everyone likes their own ideas. My opinion, as I am not a Mod

[Miniac]

I don't want him to be trade, I like Baertschi!

[FlameZilla]

The only scenario where I can mentally accept a Sven trade is if we are getting a legit 1st line forward or top pairing D for a package including Baertchi. His potential outweighs his current play, but we've also seen glimpses of his genius at various points during his short career. Keep him and show patience and nuturing and there's a solid chance he'll be a top 6 forward very soon.

Regarding the proposed trade: acquiring Gormley, who is a year closer to achieving 'bust' status than Sven, is pointless if the price is Baertschi. If Baertschi is traded it should be for a known commodity; in all other scenarios he is a wasted asset. Go after Gormley if the price is more reasonable than Sven.

[Poe969]

I would like to pick up Gormley as well but I think t should be someone else going the other way. Phoenix is closer to competing then we are so maybe they'd want someone more established. I agree that this team should start acquiring younger players like Gormley but not at the cost of other young players. I'm not against "giving up" Sven, but it would have to be for more than just Gormley.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Ok, let's rejig this topic. We all like Sven, but a bit if a mixed crowd, the feeling maybe that Sven is worth a little more.

But there are some who agree and see the value in Gormley. What do we think it would take to acquire him?

Hudler might appeal to them as a cost controlled player for a few seasons and not have to dip their toes in the free agent market, replacing Vrbata basically. Continues with the youth movement.

[Poe969]

I'd want a lot more for Hudler. I'd be open to Smid fir Gormley or something like that but you have to realize that Gormley doesn't have that much trade value at this point.